M96 Cylinder re-sleeving - The hunt begins
05-01-2008, 04:27 PM
#46
Race Car
Any reputable Porsche shop that CAN build a M96 and have a machine shop SHOULD be able to sleeve the block, add bigger slugs, and balance for the new setup.
This shouldnt be a hard task.
Gotta love the lack of expertise in the Porsche world, drives me nuts.........
This is the crap that makes companies able to rape customers for the same run-of-the-mill work that is done day-in and day-out on any other car.
This shouldnt be a hard task.
Gotta love the lack of expertise in the Porsche world, drives me nuts.........
This is the crap that makes companies able to rape customers for the same run-of-the-mill work that is done day-in and day-out on any other car.
05-01-2008, 05:17 PM
#47
Three Wheelin'
Any reputable Porsche shop that CAN build a M96 and have a machine shop SHOULD be able to sleeve the block, add bigger slugs, and balance for the new setup.
This shouldnt be a hard task.
Gotta love the lack of expertise in the Porsche world, drives me nuts.........
This is the crap that makes companies able to rape customers for the same run-of-the-mill work that is done day-in and day-out on any other car.
This shouldnt be a hard task.
Gotta love the lack of expertise in the Porsche world, drives me nuts.........
This is the crap that makes companies able to rape customers for the same run-of-the-mill work that is done day-in and day-out on any other car.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Ruf et al know a lot more about tuning Porsches than johnny-on-the-street, but as the value of the vehicle declines you have to ask yourself what you're spending that premium money on. If I personally cracked a cylinder and needed to handle replacement vs. rebuild on my own dime, I would still rather give someone the work if they'd done it on a modern porsche water jacketed motor just because we all know the first time doing anything tends to be a learning experience. But I totally agree Tippy, there's just no reason why anyone with a good shop and reputation for quality couldn't do the resleeve, this is not rocket science.
In my case I won't worry about doing Nickies on my own nickel until 2010 (CPO).
The interesting thing I saw on the LN Engineering site was the apparent lack of demand/volume for this repair being cited as the reason for the relatively high price, but that they introduced the service due to huge demand. In my short time watching this forum, I've noticed a lot of owners desiring the availability of certain solutions and upgrades at lower costs, but I bet the majority eventually take the safest route once it comes time to do the do, and I have to say I at least somewhat empathize with this attitude (I bought a CPO specifically as two years of insurance against something really major blowing up).
05-01-2008, 05:20 PM
#48
Race Car
it's pretty funny, not a ton of motorheads and more than anything people are much more afraid of blowing up a porsche or ferrari motor, so the owners won't take them to anyone else (in the US) but the usual suspects, who can then charge whatever they want, the more the better as the owner is paying for peace of mind. How many times have you read on here that you should go pay so and so a premium so you can "sleep at night".
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Ruf et al know a lot more about tuning Porsches than johnny-on-the-street, but as the value of the vehicle declines you have to ask yourself what you're spending that premium money on. If I personally cracked a cylinder and needed to handle replacement vs. rebuild on my own dime, I would still rather give someone the work if they'd done it on a modern porsche water jacketed motor just because we all know the first time doing anything tends to be a learning experience. But I totally agree Tippy, there's just no reason why anyone with a good shop and reputation for quality couldn't do the resleeve, this is not rocket science.
In my case I won't worry about doing Nickies on my own nickel until 2010 (CPO).
The interesting thing I saw on the LN Engineering site was the apparent lack of demand/volume for this repair being cited as the reason for the relatively high price, but that they introduced the service due to huge demand. In my short time watching this forum, I've noticed a lot of owners desiring the availability of certain solutions and upgrades at lower costs, but I bet the majority eventually take the safest route once it comes time to do the do, and I have to say I at least somewhat empathize with this attitude (I bought a CPO specifically as two years of insurance against something really major blowing up).
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Ruf et al know a lot more about tuning Porsches than johnny-on-the-street, but as the value of the vehicle declines you have to ask yourself what you're spending that premium money on. If I personally cracked a cylinder and needed to handle replacement vs. rebuild on my own dime, I would still rather give someone the work if they'd done it on a modern porsche water jacketed motor just because we all know the first time doing anything tends to be a learning experience. But I totally agree Tippy, there's just no reason why anyone with a good shop and reputation for quality couldn't do the resleeve, this is not rocket science.
In my case I won't worry about doing Nickies on my own nickel until 2010 (CPO).
The interesting thing I saw on the LN Engineering site was the apparent lack of demand/volume for this repair being cited as the reason for the relatively high price, but that they introduced the service due to huge demand. In my short time watching this forum, I've noticed a lot of owners desiring the availability of certain solutions and upgrades at lower costs, but I bet the majority eventually take the safest route once it comes time to do the do, and I have to say I at least somewhat empathize with this attitude (I bought a CPO specifically as two years of insurance against something really major blowing up).
+1,000,000,000,000
05-07-2008, 11:09 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
Pretty much, with exception of the 3.0SCs, most of the 2.7s, most of the 3.2, and all of the 3.3 930s, up to the 3.6 964/993 all used Nikasil plating, without any problems. Porsche still uses Nikasil on the high end engines. 986/987 996/997 get Locasil because it's cheaper. There are lots of differences in the quality of nikasil platings - it's never really been an issue with Porsches.
The firm we use for our plating gives a lifetime warranty to that effect and it's one that I've never had to really use with our Nickies cylinders. Done right, ensuring proper quality control and all the individual steps involved in the plating process are done right AND the material being plated is compatible with plating, there's no problem with Nikasil. Case in point, 7-XXX series aluminum alloys are very strong and you would think they would plate well. They even use it for connecting rods in dragsters making big HP as shock absorbers, so the bearings don't pound out and snap the crank. Try to plate a 7-XXX alloy, and it comes right off. Different alloys have different levels of plating compatibility. It has taken us years to tweak alloys to get every last bit of strength and ductility while ensuring the best adhesion possible.
05-07-2008, 11:34 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
The interesting thing I saw on the LN Engineering site was the apparent lack of demand/volume for this repair being cited as the reason for the relatively high price, but that they introduced the service due to huge demand. In my short time watching this forum, I've noticed a lot of owners desiring the availability of certain solutions and upgrades at lower costs, but I bet the majority eventually take the safest route once it comes time to do the do, and I have to say I at least somewhat empathize with this attitude (I bought a CPO specifically as two years of insurance against something really major blowing up).
Right now, we do the blocks on an as needed basis. We've done a bone stock 2.5, a race prep 2.5->2.7, and we currently are doing a 3.4->3.6 and have another 3.4 on the sidelines to do a repeat when we're done with the current block. I'm not going to say we've done a whole bunch of them, because the price of a reman engine is so cheap, but I have heard of even reman engines failing from the D-chunk problem.
It's not as easy as one would think. It takes time to bore the block, ensuring that the bores are parallel to each other and perfectly perpendicular, not to mention located precisely in the same location as the cast in liner. Afterwards, a sleeve is made to fit the block precisely, thickened up to allow for larger oversizes, while still allowing for ample coolant flow like the factory intended. We also leave the factory cast in trusses on the back side of the sleeve, to support side loading of the sleeve. Granted our alloy has a ductility of ~12-14% versus ~3-4% for the locasil at best, the cylinder is a lot more forgiving to stresses it will encounter. And it's not as simple as pressing in a sleeve. You've got to plate the liner, install, hone, then surface the block to allow for proper sealing.
What the customer gets back is a block ready to be cleaned and reassembled. We're probably going to start stocking completed blocks sometime in the next year on an exchange basis, to reduce lead time. Same with the pistons.
When all is said and done, once you've added in all the labor, you're well near or over what it costs to do a set of aircooled cylinders for a 911, at least from a manufacturing standpoint.
Steel sleeves would be a much cheaper option in volume, but not what the factory intended for cooling and depending on the ductility of the alloy, may end up with similar cracking over the long haul like the lokasil (because of the very high silicon content).
We haven't worked on or addressed any of the other "while you are in there" upgrades, just repairing the blocks and having as close to original custom JE Pistons made up. The only exception is that I've already made up billet steel rods for the 2.5, since the cracked cap rods have their limitations, following suit with my rods for all the aircooled Porsches.
There are tons of photos on my web site for those who want to see some of the steps.
05-08-2008, 12:16 AM
#52
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Could you give us an idea of what's possible, displacement wise, with various engines 2.5L through 3.8L (for completeness, I guess)? Also, maybe in a 2nd column list what's possible using factory cranks as stroker cranks. With your Nickies, is it about the same as what Autofarm is talking or a little more due to your liners? I would guess that power output is not going to be linear with displacement (due to proportionally more restrictive heads and all the rest), but at the same time, you don't have to worry about adapting electronics or harnesses/mounts/hoses/etc., so it still could be attractive.
05-08-2008, 09:31 AM
#53
Rennlist Member
To be perfectly honest, I've never even looked at what Autofarm does. I wanted to take what the factory did, and improve upon it, not change it entirely.
I would figure a 2-3mm oversize is a safe figure. That said, I just did a 3.5mm oversize for a race prepped 2.5 and had I wanted, I could have probably pushed it further. More is possible, but I like to be conservative in my recommendations.
Cost wise, I'm significantly less than Autofarm, and even more so when you consider the exhange rate.
Like I said, I don't profess to know everything on these engines. I don't know about interchangeability of cranks and the nitty gritty of IMS, or even software updates, which would be absolutely necessary to ensure the reliability and longevity of an engine if we increase the displacement over stock. Up until this point, I've been leaving it up to the shops that have contracted me to do their blocks, to work out those details. But I'm sure, as it's already planned that Porsche will discontinue support for the 2.5, and eventually other engines, that the DIY scene will be a big one. Wayne Dempsey (Pelican Parts), is in the process of writing a book on the Boxster, and documenting alot of the details for the DIY'er, which I'm sure will be as invaluable as his current Porsche 911 Engine Rebuild book.
And thankfully, we have forums like Rennlist and those over on Pelican Parts.... some well documented photo rebuilds along with detailed threads like many have done with their aircooled rebuilds would be an excellent primer to give enthusiasts the motivation to tear into their own 986/996 (and later) engines to do rebuilds themselves. Just don't expect support to come from Porsche on it from what I have been told by those shops brave enough to tackle these rebuilds up until now.
I do honestly believe that with all these updates, the 986/996 engine can be made more reliable than even the current 987/997 engines and hopefully as robust as the engines used in the Turbo, GT2, and GT3.
I would figure a 2-3mm oversize is a safe figure. That said, I just did a 3.5mm oversize for a race prepped 2.5 and had I wanted, I could have probably pushed it further. More is possible, but I like to be conservative in my recommendations.
Cost wise, I'm significantly less than Autofarm, and even more so when you consider the exhange rate.
Like I said, I don't profess to know everything on these engines. I don't know about interchangeability of cranks and the nitty gritty of IMS, or even software updates, which would be absolutely necessary to ensure the reliability and longevity of an engine if we increase the displacement over stock. Up until this point, I've been leaving it up to the shops that have contracted me to do their blocks, to work out those details. But I'm sure, as it's already planned that Porsche will discontinue support for the 2.5, and eventually other engines, that the DIY scene will be a big one. Wayne Dempsey (Pelican Parts), is in the process of writing a book on the Boxster, and documenting alot of the details for the DIY'er, which I'm sure will be as invaluable as his current Porsche 911 Engine Rebuild book.
And thankfully, we have forums like Rennlist and those over on Pelican Parts.... some well documented photo rebuilds along with detailed threads like many have done with their aircooled rebuilds would be an excellent primer to give enthusiasts the motivation to tear into their own 986/996 (and later) engines to do rebuilds themselves. Just don't expect support to come from Porsche on it from what I have been told by those shops brave enough to tackle these rebuilds up until now.
I do honestly believe that with all these updates, the 986/996 engine can be made more reliable than even the current 987/997 engines and hopefully as robust as the engines used in the Turbo, GT2, and GT3.
05-08-2008, 10:24 AM
#54
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
To be perfectly honest, I've never even looked at what Autofarm does. I wanted to take what the factory did, and improve upon it, not change it entirely.
I would figure a 2-3mm oversize is a safe figure. That said, I just did a 3.5mm oversize for a race prepped 2.5 and had I wanted, I could have probably pushed it further. More is possible, but I like to be conservative in my recommendations.
Cost wise, I'm significantly less than Autofarm, and even more so when you consider the exhange rate.
Like I said, I don't profess to know everything on these engines. I don't know about interchangeability of cranks and the nitty gritty of IMS, or even software updates, which would be absolutely necessary to ensure the reliability and longevity of an engine if we increase the displacement over stock. Up until this point, I've been leaving it up to the shops that have contracted me to do their blocks, to work out those details. But I'm sure, as it's already planned that Porsche will discontinue support for the 2.5, and eventually other engines, that the DIY scene will be a big one. Wayne Dempsey (Pelican Parts), is in the process of writing a book on the Boxster, and documenting alot of the details for the DIY'er, which I'm sure will be as invaluable as his current Porsche 911 Engine Rebuild book.
And thankfully, we have forums like Rennlist and those over on Pelican Parts.... some well documented photo rebuilds along with detailed threads like many have done with their aircooled rebuilds would be an excellent primer to give enthusiasts the motivation to tear into their own 986/996 (and later) engines to do rebuilds themselves. Just don't expect support to come from Porsche on it from what I have been told by those shops brave enough to tackle these rebuilds up until now.
I do honestly believe that with all these updates, the 986/996 engine can be made more reliable than even the current 987/997 engines and hopefully as robust as the engines used in the Turbo, GT2, and GT3.
I would figure a 2-3mm oversize is a safe figure. That said, I just did a 3.5mm oversize for a race prepped 2.5 and had I wanted, I could have probably pushed it further. More is possible, but I like to be conservative in my recommendations.
Cost wise, I'm significantly less than Autofarm, and even more so when you consider the exhange rate.
Like I said, I don't profess to know everything on these engines. I don't know about interchangeability of cranks and the nitty gritty of IMS, or even software updates, which would be absolutely necessary to ensure the reliability and longevity of an engine if we increase the displacement over stock. Up until this point, I've been leaving it up to the shops that have contracted me to do their blocks, to work out those details. But I'm sure, as it's already planned that Porsche will discontinue support for the 2.5, and eventually other engines, that the DIY scene will be a big one. Wayne Dempsey (Pelican Parts), is in the process of writing a book on the Boxster, and documenting alot of the details for the DIY'er, which I'm sure will be as invaluable as his current Porsche 911 Engine Rebuild book.
And thankfully, we have forums like Rennlist and those over on Pelican Parts.... some well documented photo rebuilds along with detailed threads like many have done with their aircooled rebuilds would be an excellent primer to give enthusiasts the motivation to tear into their own 986/996 (and later) engines to do rebuilds themselves. Just don't expect support to come from Porsche on it from what I have been told by those shops brave enough to tackle these rebuilds up until now.
I do honestly believe that with all these updates, the 986/996 engine can be made more reliable than even the current 987/997 engines and hopefully as robust as the engines used in the Turbo, GT2, and GT3.
I'd like to try and find a set of cylinders (damaged preferred) that we can do some bench testing on. Once we have a good idea, I am certain this could work and be quite cost effective as well (versus complete motor replacement).
Engineers - PLEASE chime in. WE need your help!
C.
06-04-2008, 09:44 AM
#55
Rennlist Member
Can anyone with broken or worn intermediate shafts PM me. I'm trying to see if I can borrow a selection of IMS to study the problem in greater detail. We have a huge selection of 2.5 shafts, and suprisingly, they all look a-ok. Go figure.
06-04-2008, 02:08 PM
#56
Racer
Jake Raby has teamed up with LN engineering and they have also developed a modified billet IMS as well as solutions to other issues with the M96 motor.
http://www.flat6innovations.com/
He picked up four blown boxster engines from me over memorial day weekend that are being used to further their development. For those that don't know, Jake runs aircooled technology known for building pretty stout engines: http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/Home_Page.htm
As the price of reman engines will probably continue to climb and I imagine the earlier 3.4 and 2.5 motors will no longer be available at some point, the ability to rebuild and improve the M96 motor will become more and more important and cost effective.
-Todd
http://www.flat6innovations.com/
He picked up four blown boxster engines from me over memorial day weekend that are being used to further their development. For those that don't know, Jake runs aircooled technology known for building pretty stout engines: http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/Home_Page.htm
As the price of reman engines will probably continue to climb and I imagine the earlier 3.4 and 2.5 motors will no longer be available at some point, the ability to rebuild and improve the M96 motor will become more and more important and cost effective.
-Todd
06-04-2008, 02:32 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
Yup, I'm working with Jake. He's going to be doing the dirty work. I'm actually just now working on a solution for the IMS. I hope to have something to share in a few months that is worth sharing, be it a billet replacement as we have done for other parts (for other applications) or some sort of modification or retrofit for existing components. I'm also working closely with a local dealership that has seen lots of these failures and their tech will be sharing his first hand knowledge, as I don't expect Porsche to offer up a solution short of everyone ordering up an X51 engine to replace their blown engines :-)
06-04-2008, 02:34 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
Jake Raby has teamed up with LN engineering and they have also developed a modified billet IMS as well as solutions to other issues with the M96 motor.
http://www.flat6innovations.com/
He picked up four blown boxster engines from me over memorial day weekend that are being used to further their development. For those that don't know, Jake runs aircooled technology known for building pretty stout engines: http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/Home_Page.htm
As the price of reman engines will probably continue to climb and I imagine the earlier 3.4 and 2.5 motors will no longer be available at some point, the ability to rebuild and improve the M96 motor will become more and more important and cost effective.
-Todd
http://www.flat6innovations.com/
He picked up four blown boxster engines from me over memorial day weekend that are being used to further their development. For those that don't know, Jake runs aircooled technology known for building pretty stout engines: http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/Home_Page.htm
As the price of reman engines will probably continue to climb and I imagine the earlier 3.4 and 2.5 motors will no longer be available at some point, the ability to rebuild and improve the M96 motor will become more and more important and cost effective.
-Todd
thanks!
Pete
