What does a S get you?
04-19-2008, 11:45 PM
#31
Ironman 140.6
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Lets deal with the facts first. The only "S" in the 996 NA line is the C4S. Here, the "S", relative to the non-S C4, has larger brakes, wider tread, wider tires, sportier suspension, wider body, all leather interior, upgraded headlights/turbo-look, more weight than the C2, less weight than the turbo. If you compare it to the C2, it's has all of the above, plus it has AWD.
The "S" version of the 997 has more HP/torque than the non-S, but they have the same suspension, same tires, same brakes, same interior, body, body style.
OK, now that that's settled, let's move on to the fun stuff
. Opinions 
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The stock out of the box 996 C4S, with it's better brakes, suspension, tires, wider tread, all these more than make up for it's extra weight and is faster than the stock out of the box 996 C2. The Porsche AWD was designed more to enhance performance and less for climatic conditions. Personal experience is that the AWD lets me get around the apex and out to the corner faster. So, in addition to my original statement that the "S" performance extras more than compensate for the extra weight, now with the AWD enhanced cornering, the C4S is faster than the C2 and the C4 in the wet AND in the dry.
There are several anecdotal supports for this opinion. Ben has alluded to the "ring card", and Ray countering. For those who have not had the pleasure or agony of previous extended and repeated and repeated arguments, this is a list circulating on the net listing ring times, where the C4 is slower than the C2 which in turn is slower than the C4S. Another supporting point is the infamous Stig, who drove both a C2 and a C4S on a closed track, and he went faster in the C4S.
Then of course, there are the multiple anecdotal personal experiences, and you can pick any one you like. Here' mine. As I progressed up the ranks in DE, the C4S consistently was faster than any other car on the run group. I'd like to say it was because I was a better driver than anyone else in my class, but the truth is that the C4S, with all it's "S" and AWD enhancements, was just that much more easy to drive fast than anything else out there. In the DRY.
Here's another opinion on what the "S" gets you. It gets you the best looking 996 out there, bar none. Of course, this is a totally impartial, unbiased opinion, and has nothing to do with the fact that I own one
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One more thing that the "S" get you. It gets you a bargain, despite the higher price. If you add the cost of the all leather interior, the wider wheels, wider tires, sport suspension, better brakes to a stock C2, you'll end up spending more money. It was true then when I bought the C4S new in 2002, and it is likely still true in todays used car market. Especially where you follow the trend where the C4S is holding it's own better against depreciation.
So that, IMHO, is what the "S" in a 996 gets you.
The "S" version of the 997 has more HP/torque than the non-S, but they have the same suspension, same tires, same brakes, same interior, body, body style.
OK, now that that's settled, let's move on to the fun stuff
. Opinions .The stock out of the box 996 C4S, with it's better brakes, suspension, tires, wider tread, all these more than make up for it's extra weight and is faster than the stock out of the box 996 C2. The Porsche AWD was designed more to enhance performance and less for climatic conditions. Personal experience is that the AWD lets me get around the apex and out to the corner faster. So, in addition to my original statement that the "S" performance extras more than compensate for the extra weight, now with the AWD enhanced cornering, the C4S is faster than the C2 and the C4 in the wet AND in the dry.
There are several anecdotal supports for this opinion. Ben has alluded to the "ring card", and Ray countering. For those who have not had the pleasure or agony of previous extended and repeated and repeated arguments, this is a list circulating on the net listing ring times, where the C4 is slower than the C2 which in turn is slower than the C4S. Another supporting point is the infamous Stig, who drove both a C2 and a C4S on a closed track, and he went faster in the C4S.
Then of course, there are the multiple anecdotal personal experiences, and you can pick any one you like. Here' mine. As I progressed up the ranks in DE, the C4S consistently was faster than any other car on the run group. I'd like to say it was because I was a better driver than anyone else in my class, but the truth is that the C4S, with all it's "S" and AWD enhancements, was just that much more easy to drive fast than anything else out there. In the DRY.
Here's another opinion on what the "S" gets you. It gets you the best looking 996 out there, bar none. Of course, this is a totally impartial, unbiased opinion, and has nothing to do with the fact that I own one
.One more thing that the "S" get you. It gets you a bargain, despite the higher price. If you add the cost of the all leather interior, the wider wheels, wider tires, sport suspension, better brakes to a stock C2, you'll end up spending more money. It was true then when I bought the C4S new in 2002, and it is likely still true in todays used car market. Especially where you follow the trend where the C4S is holding it's own better against depreciation.
So that, IMHO, is what the "S" in a 996 gets you.
Additionally, I'd agree that a C4 or C4S may produce faster laps in the hands of an inexperienced driver as the they will both have more understeer which is far more confidence inspiring. Furthermore the C2 doesn't need bigger brakes, it's brakes can go lap after lap fade free (you and I both know bigger in brakes is not always better) and it can fit up to 315's in the rear without rolling the fenders (if that's enough tire for a GT3, it's plenty for a C2).
As for the rest, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I will point out in DE you see it all (Cab's, Tip's, C2's, C4's, etc.) because you aren't racing for first or last. However, in Club Racing you see what works because those guys are racing to win. I wonder why you see lots of 996 C2's and few if any C4's and C4S's in CR??? Interesting that they would gravitate to the "slower" C2's, isn't it
04-20-2008, 12:44 AM
#32
Nordschleife Master
Ray, you're not taking over from TD are you?
To be honest, I don't know of any Porsche official performance numbers that rate the C4S slower in a straight line. A link would be nice. But, as you know and love, Porsche's are not about 0-60 straight line times. Lot's of arguably lesser cars have Porsches beat in that category. It's all about those wonderful corners, those lateral G's and the ease with which we can achieve them, just like you've got in your avatar. And in those corners, Porsche is supreme. In those corners, my argument above holds.
BTW, I think the AWD/understeer thing is misunderstood/misrepresented, at least in the Porsches. Yes, if you stomp on the gas pedal with the wheels turned, the C4S will understeer like a pig. But, if you modulate the gas, the front drive will turn that front around the apex faster, and you can get on the gas and progress to WOT faster, and achieve a faster exit speed.
In club racing, we're now talking about race cars. Those cars are gutted to the bare minimum for weight, upgraded as much as possible within their class. That's not what we are talking about here. People will purchase Porsches to convert them into dedicated race cars for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately, IMHO, none of those reasons will translate into reasons for purchasing a Porsche 996 for street/track use. I contend that for the average Joe looking for at a street/track Porsche, he will get more performance and bang for his buck with a stock 996 C4S than with a stock 996 C2.
Anyway, the OP was asking about what the "S" gets him. I think we've got most of that that covered.
To be honest, I don't know of any Porsche official performance numbers that rate the C4S slower in a straight line. A link would be nice. But, as you know and love, Porsche's are not about 0-60 straight line times. Lot's of arguably lesser cars have Porsches beat in that category. It's all about those wonderful corners, those lateral G's and the ease with which we can achieve them, just like you've got in your avatar
. And in those corners, Porsche is supreme. In those corners, my argument above holds.BTW, I think the AWD/understeer thing is misunderstood/misrepresented, at least in the Porsches. Yes, if you stomp on the gas pedal with the wheels turned, the C4S will understeer like a pig. But, if you modulate the gas, the front drive will turn that front around the apex faster, and you can get on the gas and progress to WOT faster, and achieve a faster exit speed.
In club racing, we're now talking about race cars. Those cars are gutted to the bare minimum for weight, upgraded as much as possible within their class. That's not what we are talking about here. People will purchase Porsches to convert them into dedicated race cars for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately, IMHO, none of those reasons will translate into reasons for purchasing a Porsche 996 for street/track use. I contend that for the average Joe looking for at a street/track Porsche, he will get more performance and bang for his buck with a stock 996 C4S than with a stock 996 C2.
Anyway, the OP was asking about what the "S" gets him. I think we've got most of that that covered.
04-20-2008, 01:21 AM
#33
Ironman 140.6
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
But, as you know and love, Porsche's are not about 0-60 straight line times. Lot's of arguably lesser cars have Porsches beat in that category. It's all about those wonderful corners, those lateral G's and the ease with which we can achieve them, just like you've got in your avatar . And in those corners, Porsche is supreme. In those corners, my argument above holds.
. And in those corners, Porsche is supreme. In those corners, my argument above holds.Ben already knows I'm nutty about the excess weight Porsche puts in these cars.
Like I said before, I doubt I'll convince you (and you won't convince me) so we'll have to agree to disagree.
04-20-2008, 10:00 AM
#34
Nordschleife Master
Ray, one of these days you and I will meet up in a track. In fact, I'm in Mid-Ohio right now and there are several guys from Chicago doing DE.
I have a deal for you. If and when that happens, we can swap cars. I don't think we should drive our own cars, since we just might kill ourselves trying too hard. So, we swap cars for one run. I am willing to bet a six pack for the after-event bench racing camaraderie, that you driving my C4S will beat me driving your C2. I know your car and my car are no longer stock, but what the heck, it should be fun. There will probably be accusations of "slumming", but unless we come to a dead stop on the track to allow the other guy to win, it should still be fun. If not, it can probably still be funny as heck.
I have a deal for you. If and when that happens, we can swap cars. I don't think we should drive our own cars, since we just might kill ourselves trying too hard. So, we swap cars for one run. I am willing to bet a six pack for the after-event bench racing camaraderie, that you driving my C4S will beat me driving your C2. I know your car and my car are no longer stock, but what the heck, it should be fun. There will probably be accusations of "slumming", but unless we come to a dead stop on the track to allow the other guy to win, it should still be fun. If not, it can probably still be funny as heck.
