Handling differences b/t RWD vs. AWD on the track?
05-08-2007, 02:36 AM
#46
Originally Posted by jimhsu
I am not sure where you'd get that....I am planning on buying AWD!!
Plus I just mentioned that clearly in the 1980s Porsche thought AWD as the frontier in performance driving on or off the road, when it brought 959 AWD to Paris/Dakar and entered the 959/961 AWD to Le Mans.
Plus I just mentioned that clearly in the 1980s Porsche thought AWD as the frontier in performance driving on or off the road, when it brought 959 AWD to Paris/Dakar and entered the 959/961 AWD to Le Mans.
05-08-2007, 10:49 AM
#47
Originally Posted by 1999Porsche911
If you hope to demonstrate your superior intelligence, you should learn to use the correct words unless you are saying you get hit with a piece of plywood when you drive around an oval?
05-08-2007, 10:56 AM
#48
Originally Posted by jimhsu
So don't be so quick to dismiss Turbo preference as bling-bling worshipping....
I was commenting on the factory's business/marketing beliefs potentially being the same (as my own).
Bill
05-08-2007, 11:12 AM
#49
Racer
Originally Posted by ElTorrente
First of all, let me defend my statement by providing the text from the very link that you provided me: "The “insertable” AWD system allows you to have the best of both worlds - RWD on the track, and AWD when traction levels are low. Add to that, they probably are worried that with 800hp vehicles on the way, most Ferrari owners will need extra help to keep their vehicles under control.
And that quote exactly is the reason for AWD on all those cars you named. The closer to RWD that you can make the car feel, the better. This is one of the highest praises reviewers give to the EVO, in fact - that it handles almost like a RWD car! The WRX (which I used to own) understeered, as does the STi, and both the Turbo versions of the Porsche also understeer more than their 2wd counterparts.
All that said - the fact is that awd is easier to drive and less likely to swap ends, especially with all the electronic aids working. An average driver can drive close to or even pass the limits with less reprocusions and so they are safer to the typical driver.
And that quote exactly is the reason for AWD on all those cars you named. The closer to RWD that you can make the car feel, the better. This is one of the highest praises reviewers give to the EVO, in fact - that it handles almost like a RWD car! The WRX (which I used to own) understeered, as does the STi, and both the Turbo versions of the Porsche also understeer more than their 2wd counterparts.
All that said - the fact is that awd is easier to drive and less likely to swap ends, especially with all the electronic aids working. An average driver can drive close to or even pass the limits with less reprocusions and so they are safer to the typical driver.
Also, whether AWD is an add-on to another platform (FWD or RWD) doesn't seem to be the core of the issue here; rather, it makes more financial sense for these companies to modify existing platforms than to start from scratch.
I agree that AWD cars tend to be 'easier' to control, but 'better' is subjective. I've had a lot of fun driving FWD on the track, as stiffening up the rear with bigger swaybars would help bring the rear end around when cornering.
Much of the reason you see understeer was stated earlier - rear tires are bigger and have more grip than the fronts. For 'average' driver safety, understeer is safer than oversteer, and Porsche has for years worked to tame dangerous oversteer by putting larger rear tires on than fronts. Still, the laws of physics can only be bent so far...
When it comes down to it, whatever you drive, drive safely and have fun - and if you feel the need for speed, take it to a track event!
05-08-2007, 12:07 PM
#50
Nordschleife Master
I haven't been to the board for a while, so i came late to this party. This particular party has had several iterations over the years on this board. Do a search, and you'll spend all day and night reading.
Numbers/Stats in the 'ring state that the stock 996 C4S is faster than the stock 996 C2, which in turn is faster than the 996 C4. True, as someone else has stated, there is no 996 C2 "S" to compare to the 996 C4S, unlike the 997 variants.
I disagree with the much stated opinion that AWD increases understeer. Maybe it does in other cars, but not in the Porsche C4S. On the track, together with 996 C2's, I and the other drivers find that the AWD allows the C4S driver to get on the gas earlier and more aggresively getting around the corners. That means there is LESS understeer UNDER POWER. This results in faster exit speeds and therefore higher speeds down the straight. Again, I don't know if that is all due to AWD, or is it because of all the other things that are standard on the 996 C4S that are not standard on the 996 C2.
Numbers/Stats in the 'ring state that the stock 996 C4S is faster than the stock 996 C2, which in turn is faster than the 996 C4. True, as someone else has stated, there is no 996 C2 "S" to compare to the 996 C4S, unlike the 997 variants.
I disagree with the much stated opinion that AWD increases understeer. Maybe it does in other cars, but not in the Porsche C4S. On the track, together with 996 C2's, I and the other drivers find that the AWD allows the C4S driver to get on the gas earlier and more aggresively getting around the corners. That means there is LESS understeer UNDER POWER. This results in faster exit speeds and therefore higher speeds down the straight. Again, I don't know if that is all due to AWD, or is it because of all the other things that are standard on the 996 C4S that are not standard on the 996 C2.
05-08-2007, 12:14 PM
#51
Race Car
Originally Posted by Palting
I haven't been to the board for a while, so i came late to this party. This particular party has had several iterations over the years on this board. Do a search, and you'll spend all day and night reading.
Numbers/Stats in the 'ring state that the stock 996 C4S is faster than the stock 996 C2, which in turn is faster than the 996 C4. True, as someone else has stated, there is no 996 C2 "S" to compare to the 996 C4S, unlike the 997 variants.
I disagree with the much stated opinion that AWD increases understeer. Maybe it does in other cars, but not in the Porsche C4S. On the track, together with 996 C2's, I and the other drivers find that the AWD allows the C4S driver to get on the gas earlier and more aggresively getting around the corners. That means there is LESS understeer UNDER POWER. This results in faster exit speeds and therefore higher speeds down the straight. Again, I don't know if that is all due to AWD, or is it because of all the other things that are standard on the 996 C4S that are not standard on the 996 C2.
Numbers/Stats in the 'ring state that the stock 996 C4S is faster than the stock 996 C2, which in turn is faster than the 996 C4. True, as someone else has stated, there is no 996 C2 "S" to compare to the 996 C4S, unlike the 997 variants.
I disagree with the much stated opinion that AWD increases understeer. Maybe it does in other cars, but not in the Porsche C4S. On the track, together with 996 C2's, I and the other drivers find that the AWD allows the C4S driver to get on the gas earlier and more aggresively getting around the corners. That means there is LESS understeer UNDER POWER. This results in faster exit speeds and therefore higher speeds down the straight. Again, I don't know if that is all due to AWD, or is it because of all the other things that are standard on the 996 C4S that are not standard on the 996 C2.
For tracking, AWD is nothing more than training wheels as is PASM.
05-08-2007, 12:37 PM
#52
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,057
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I like my training wheels! I fully admit that I am not the best driver in the world but have turned some decent times at the ring (9:48 give or take with 3 laps) and really enjoy the extra security of driving fast on twisty Autobahns when the weather is less than perfect. I have driven both and bought the training wheel version but I can promise you that if you pick a regular day in Germany and drive cross country in a C2 and C4 that the odds are the C4 will win since it is always raining somewhere. But heck enjoy what you bought and learn to drive it the best you can, I would be happy with either car! 
05-08-2007, 12:53 PM
#53
Race Car
Originally Posted by rountreed
I like my training wheels! I fully admit that I am not the best driver in the world but have turned some decent times at the ring (9:48 give or take with 3 laps) and really enjoy the extra security of driving fast on twisty Autobahns when the weather is less than perfect. I have driven both and bought the training wheel version but I can promise you that if you pick a regular day in Germany and drive cross country in a C2 and C4 that the odds are the C4 will win since it is always raining somewhere. But heck enjoy what you bought and learn to drive it the best you can, I would be happy with either car!
05-08-2007, 01:45 PM
#55
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Lesa, Italy & Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,517
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
Originally Posted by dresler
Ummm. front wheel cars understeer because of a severe front weight bias
FWD cars understeer because the front tires use grip to accelrate, leaving less grip to turn with.
05-08-2007, 02:19 PM
#56
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by 1999Porsche911
Don't misinterpret my comments to mean I do not think the C4 is a great car. The comments were directed more to those who track their car and then state that they can beat a C2 around the track, claiming, because if that, they are the better driver.
I'm not sure you were refering to me with my previous post, but I'll respond in case you are. Nowhere in my post is there a mention of better driver. I do mention that the C4S, regardless of who is driving, can exit corners faster than the C2. The C4S can, and does, make the lesser driver faster than a better driver in a C2. That's just one of the many reasons I like my C4S!!
Now, if I put R-compounds on the car, competition suspension, that will make the car even faster, and a lesser driver like me willl even look better against much better drivers. I'll take all the advantages I can get
.
05-08-2007, 04:25 PM
#58
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The best corner of the USA
Posts: 956
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by wrljet
Well, my point wasn't to dismiss, but since you mentioned it, yes, I do believe the very wealthy bling-bling crowd generally buys the most expensive product in a give line-up (while often not understanding or needing the performance aspects involved).
I was commenting on the factory's business/marketing beliefs potentially being the same (as my own).
Bill
I was commenting on the factory's business/marketing beliefs potentially being the same (as my own).
Bill
But that does not mean all Turbo buyers are bling-bling worshippers.
05-08-2007, 04:45 PM
#59
Burning Brakes
OK....I'll chime in as I did a BUNCH of research.....those that think the AWD understeer is a result of the system is wrong.....my C4 Cab has all the understeer dialed out....now has anyone driven a 997 AWD? I have, and its absolutely amazing...as all articles have said, its better than the C2....I have driven a 997 C2 as well. On a 996, if you have a suspension, and correct alignment, you will eliminate the understeer which is the weak point in the 996 system...the 997 system does not have this....which is faster around a track? depends on the driver....they behave differently...if you try and drive a C4 like a C2, it wont be fast....and vice versa...but a C4 driven like a C4 will be VERY fast...as will a C2 driven like a C2....I think you will find the differences in times negligable....Its funny we talk about a few seconds over such a long technical track like Nurbergring....Bottom line is they are both fast and buy the one you like the best.
05-08-2007, 04:47 PM
#60
Originally Posted by jimhsu
All bling-bling worshippers buy the most expensive cars (i.e. Turbo).
But that does not mean all Turbo buyers are bling-bling worshippers.
But that does not mean all Turbo buyers are bling-bling worshippers.
