Fred R. C4S

You might want to recall the Trans Am Series of the late '80's. Audi competed with their 200 Quattro and later with their 90 Quattro. Both were later rendered obsolete by rules changes banning AWD. They were faster in both the wet and the dry. However, it the wet, the advantage was laughable.

Trans Am Quattro

Did you ever see one of those launch off the line? Or an A4 Quattro in the Speed Challenge Series?

Does a C2 have better turn in that a C4 or TT. Yes. I've owned and tracked them all. But your across the board statement regarding "training wheels" might be rejected by Hurley Haywood, Hans Stuck and the others who campaigned the Quattro in Trams Am and IMSA GT racing.

When you have an opinion, express it as one. Don't try to make it into a fact when it isn't.

Cheers,

1999Porsche911

Thank you for confirming my opinion.

jumper5836

Any RWD sportcars doing the Dakar?

jimhsu

In GT classes, AWD is not allowed. That is the major rationale for RWD only, besides weight savings.

But what is Porsche's thinking really regarding AWD and performance: the no-compromise, 959 "supercar" was an AWD? The Carrera GT is a RWD (is there any Carrera GT based racing vehicle out there??)??

insite

the 959 was designed for the dakar rally and, as such, HAD to be AWD. it was homologated to make it race legal, which is why it was sold to the public. the carrera GT was designed from the get go to be a road going super car and so was chosen to be RWD.

ElTorrente

C'mon folks - it's pretty simple. AWD understeers more than RWD. Period.

Your tires can only take so much, and give so much traction. Basically anytime you are asking the front wheels to accelerate AND corner, then some of the traction from cornering is going toward acceleration, and they will lose cornering traction and start pushing at the limits. It's the same reason why front-wheel drive cars understeer so heavily and suck so bad at handling.

As far as the 959 goes... that car was designed as a super-car to be driven in all conditions, and was a test-bed for all of Porsche's technology. Traction control and electronic aids and such- 4 wheel drive - it's all for making it fast in every condition - for any driver... oh yeah, and to enter in the Drakar rally. Why is "jumper5836" talking about the Drakar anyway lol. We are talking about the race track, not a cross-country, offroad rally.

10 GT3

You forget 1 MAJOR factor in these series in the 70's: the weight rule. Although AWD drivetrains weigh MORE than 2WD drivetrains, they were allowed to run in the SAME weight class. Given the 600+ hp those cars had, the 2WD cars didn't have as much traction coming out of corners. To make it worse, the rules only allowed balasting weight in very particular locations placed high and within the passenger compartment as to not give a handling advantage. In the real world, this is more than made up by the additional weight incurred on the vehicle from the AWD drivetrain. When the rules were corrected to reflect the actual drivtrain weight (to have AWD immediately added 150 lbs the first year and 200 lbs the second), Audi's domination completely ended.

The same thing happened in Touring Car where FWD, RWD and AWD were initially allowed to run in the same weight class. Keep in mind FWD was developed for simplier packing for assembly and reduced weight. Weights are now staggered with FWD the lightest, RWD in the middle and AWD the heaviest. Usually it is the FRW or RWD that win, not the AWD cars. Since the winners of each race now have a weight penalty added for the next race, the Audi's will still occassionally win one.

ElTorrente

There's also a reason that Porsches only give a small amount of torque (5%) to the front wheels, and it only increases as the rear wheels lose traction- because they want the AWD to handle similar to a RWD! It still doesn't, but it's a good compromise. There's also a reason that Ferrari doesn't even bother with AWD - no need to if you aren't trying to make a car that is fast in every condition for the "average" driver. They just want cars that you can steer with your right foot, and remain nicely balanced doing so. AWD would totally screw up that equation.

dresler

Ummm. front wheel cars understeer because of a severe front weight bias; but yes, if you break the traction with throttle the car will of course understeer.
Remember the 1984 Honda Prelude? It was close to being neutral and subjectively outhandled every car tested but a 944 in Car and Driver (including the 911 of the time).

On real world (crappy) roads and in wet conditions i"ll take 4wd everytime. I know..

shustermeister

"There's also a reason that Ferrari doesn't even bother with AWD - no need to if you aren't trying to make a car that is fast in every condition for the "average" driver. They just want cars that you can steer with your right foot, and remain nicely balanced doing so. AWD would totally screw up that equation."

First of all, I'll correct your statement above - please visit this link:
Ferrari AWD

And I'd love to hear your rationale on why Lamborghini Gallardo and Murcielago are both AWD. 996 and 997 Turbo? Audi S4/RS4/RS6? Subaru WRX? Mitsu EVO? All pretty darn fast DRIVERS cars...

Depending on the actions of the driver, suspension setup, tire inflation, and other factors, a vehicle's inherent understeer/oversteer tendencies can be overcome.

I know because I've driven FWD, RWD, and AWD on the street. And on the track over a period of about 14 years. Am I the second coming of Ayrton Senna - no. However, I can tell you that vehicle handling dynamics are more than just what wheels are driving the vehicle and weight distribution...

wrljet

Well, some of those are/were predominately FWD with the AWD added on as an afterthought.

And some like the 911 Turbo might be just cause it costs more and Porsche wants every dime they can squeeze out of the buyer.

dresler

jimhsu

The 959 was not designed for the Paris-Dakar; although it did win that race, it was also used in AWD form for Le Mans (Type 961: the first ever AWD car in Le Mans according to Excellence was Expected) and placed seventh.

That's a good indication, at least back in the 1980s, that Porsche felt AWD technology could be successful both in offroad and track racing, or it would have created a RWD version of 959 just for Le Mans.

jumper5836

My whole point is the sports cars are made for different reasons. While the U.S doesn't give a **** about rally racing, the rest of the world does. I guess were just a bit more intelligent and get board of going round an oval.

jimhsu

I am not buying one new though, and when I buy it it will be the Turbo. Why? Because I've driven both the C2, the C4S, and the Turbo....for the money difference in the used market, Turbos are a bargain for what they offer (GT1 engine block, big red brakes, stronger gearbox, and the acceleration!!!)

So don't be so quick to dismiss Turbo preference as bling-bling worshipping....