996 Handling Characteristics and Driving Style
04-01-2007, 09:27 AM
#1
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996 Handling Characteristics and Driving Style
I've been reading about the 996'es handling on this forum. It seems that many owners say that their car understeers (and that a limited slip dials in more understeer?).
I've track-driven 50/50 fr/rr static weight distributed cars (FD Rx7 and E36 M3), and love the neutral handling. Both the 3rd generation Rx7 and 2nd generation M3 have enough hp/tq to power-on oversteer to turn the car through the apex. This has been my track-driving style for 10 years.
I've tried a student's '99 996 in Oct 2004, and while it did understeer more than I liked, I found rotating the car took a little different approach--late braking with a bit more braking while turning, and blending the throttle in early while releasing the brake (left-foot braking helps tremendously when there's no heel-toe-downshift required for the turn).
For opentrack 996 drivers, what is your technique for turning the 996 effectively?
How do you tune in more neutral handling with the 996?
Should I be looking at the Boxster S instead (better static fr/rr weight distribution and neutral handling)?
Thanks!
-Manny
I've track-driven 50/50 fr/rr static weight distributed cars (FD Rx7 and E36 M3), and love the neutral handling. Both the 3rd generation Rx7 and 2nd generation M3 have enough hp/tq to power-on oversteer to turn the car through the apex. This has been my track-driving style for 10 years.
I've tried a student's '99 996 in Oct 2004, and while it did understeer more than I liked, I found rotating the car took a little different approach--late braking with a bit more braking while turning, and blending the throttle in early while releasing the brake (left-foot braking helps tremendously when there's no heel-toe-downshift required for the turn).
For opentrack 996 drivers, what is your technique for turning the 996 effectively?
How do you tune in more neutral handling with the 996?
Should I be looking at the Boxster S instead (better static fr/rr weight distribution and neutral handling)?
Thanks!
-Manny
Last edited by SleepRM3; 04-03-2007 at 01:55 PM.
04-01-2007, 01:25 PM
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I found that the European front struts and springs fixed the problem on my 03 C4S (but I also run GT2 wheels with 245/40/18 - 335/30/18 tires). I'd like to talk with the guy who thought it would be OK to raise the front end 20mm!
04-02-2007, 10:53 AM
#3
I haven't had my car on the track yet but have autocrossed it several times since I have owned it (Septeber 06 purchase). Without a doubt this car will understeer slightly, no where near as bad as my E36 before mods. Even after mods, if I over cooked a turn with my 323is with PSS9's, camber plates (-3.4 degrees front camber and -2.4 in rear) and LSD, it would still oversteer a bit more than my 996 with LSD.
With that said, I need to preface that my car (996) is fairly modified with PSS9's, GT3 control arms, sways, custom alignment (aggressive) etc... This car if you over cook will give you a bit of understeer (gentle) and if you lift will go into trailing throttle oversteer (fairly quickly) so you must be ready to apply throttle slightly to stop the cars rotation when you want to. It's quite different than the E36 I had as it requires gentle inputs where the E36 you could be a bit less sensitive (and let you get away with it). If you do it right, the amount of throttle you can apply during exit is amazing when the weight goes on the back tires.
With my E36, if I understeered in a turn (at the track or autocross) open up the wheel a bit, if need go neutral on throttle and/or trailbreak would take care of this pretty easily as the front end tucked right back in.
What I have learned so far is in corner entry do your breaking first and go into the turn, don't try to do too much trail breaking as it will rotate pretty darn quickly and could bite you (see my first three spins on the autocross in an off camber portion of course where my E36 would never have had this issue). Of course this could be the way my car was set up as the previous owner wanted a very neutral car.
Once you clear the turn, you can really apply throttle as even in the wet, this car won't oversteer too drastically on power (more like a twitch). The corner exit speeds are amazing when you do this.
As long as you work with this car it is crazy fun.
As for tuning out the understeer, the discussions I had with the PO you can tune it out with alignment, and suspension settings.
Hope this helps,
Pete
With that said, I need to preface that my car (996) is fairly modified with PSS9's, GT3 control arms, sways, custom alignment (aggressive) etc... This car if you over cook will give you a bit of understeer (gentle) and if you lift will go into trailing throttle oversteer (fairly quickly) so you must be ready to apply throttle slightly to stop the cars rotation when you want to. It's quite different than the E36 I had as it requires gentle inputs where the E36 you could be a bit less sensitive (and let you get away with it). If you do it right, the amount of throttle you can apply during exit is amazing when the weight goes on the back tires.
With my E36, if I understeered in a turn (at the track or autocross) open up the wheel a bit, if need go neutral on throttle and/or trailbreak would take care of this pretty easily as the front end tucked right back in.
What I have learned so far is in corner entry do your breaking first and go into the turn, don't try to do too much trail breaking as it will rotate pretty darn quickly and could bite you (see my first three spins on the autocross in an off camber portion of course where my E36 would never have had this issue). Of course this could be the way my car was set up as the previous owner wanted a very neutral car.
Once you clear the turn, you can really apply throttle as even in the wet, this car won't oversteer too drastically on power (more like a twitch). The corner exit speeds are amazing when you do this.
As long as you work with this car it is crazy fun.
As for tuning out the understeer, the discussions I had with the PO you can tune it out with alignment, and suspension settings.
Hope this helps,
Pete
04-02-2007, 11:14 AM
#4
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Thread Starter
Pete, thanks for the reply--it helps.
Originally Posted by LJpete
I haven't had my car on the track yet but have autocrossed it several times since I have owned it (Septeber 06 purchase). Without a doubt this car will understeer slightly, no where near as bad as my E36 before mods. Even after mods, if I over cooked a turn with my 323is with PSS9's, camber plates (-3.4 degrees front camber and -2.4 in rear) and LSD, it would still oversteer a bit more than my 996 with LSD.
With that said, I need to preface that my car (996) is fairly modified with PSS9's, GT3 control arms, sways, custom alignment (aggressive) etc... This car if you over cook will give you a bit of understeer (gentle) and if you lift will go into trailing throttle oversteer (fairly quickly) so you must be ready to apply throttle slightly to stop the cars rotation when you want to. It's quite different than the E36 I had as it requires gentle inputs where the E36 you could be a bit less sensitive (and let you get away with it). If you do it right, the amount of throttle you can apply during exit is amazing when the weight goes on the back tires.
With my E36, if I understeered in a turn (at the track or autocross) open up the wheel a bit, if need go neutral on throttle and/or trailbreak would take care of this pretty easily as the front end tucked right back in.
What I have learned so far is in corner entry do your breaking first and go into the turn, don't try to do too much trail breaking as it will rotate pretty darn quickly and could bite you (see my first three spins on the autocross in an off camber portion of course where my E36 would never have had this issue). Of course this could be the way my car was set up as the previous owner wanted a very neutral car.
Once you clear the turn, you can really apply throttle as even in the wet, this car won't oversteer too drastically on power (more like a twitch). The corner exit speeds are amazing when you do this.
As long as you work with this car it is crazy fun.
As for tuning out the understeer, the discussions I had with the PO you can tune it out with alignment, and suspension settings.
Hope this helps,
Pete
With that said, I need to preface that my car (996) is fairly modified with PSS9's, GT3 control arms, sways, custom alignment (aggressive) etc... This car if you over cook will give you a bit of understeer (gentle) and if you lift will go into trailing throttle oversteer (fairly quickly) so you must be ready to apply throttle slightly to stop the cars rotation when you want to. It's quite different than the E36 I had as it requires gentle inputs where the E36 you could be a bit less sensitive (and let you get away with it). If you do it right, the amount of throttle you can apply during exit is amazing when the weight goes on the back tires.
With my E36, if I understeered in a turn (at the track or autocross) open up the wheel a bit, if need go neutral on throttle and/or trailbreak would take care of this pretty easily as the front end tucked right back in.
What I have learned so far is in corner entry do your breaking first and go into the turn, don't try to do too much trail breaking as it will rotate pretty darn quickly and could bite you (see my first three spins on the autocross in an off camber portion of course where my E36 would never have had this issue). Of course this could be the way my car was set up as the previous owner wanted a very neutral car.
Once you clear the turn, you can really apply throttle as even in the wet, this car won't oversteer too drastically on power (more like a twitch). The corner exit speeds are amazing when you do this.
As long as you work with this car it is crazy fun.
As for tuning out the understeer, the discussions I had with the PO you can tune it out with alignment, and suspension settings.
Hope this helps,
Pete
04-02-2007, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by SleepRM3
I've been reading about the 996'es handling on this forum. It seems that many owners say that their car understeers (and that a limited slip dials in more understeer?).
I've track-driven 50/50 fr/rr static weight distributed cars (FD Rx7 and E36 M3), and love the neutral handling. Both the 3rd generation Rx7 and 2nd generation M3 have enough hp/tq to power-on oversteer to turn the car through the apex. This has been my track-driving style for 10 years.
I've tried a student's '99 996 in Oct 2004, and while it did understeer more than I liked, I found rotating the car took a little different approach--late braking with a bit more braking while turning, and blending the throttle in early (left-foot braking helps tremendously when there's no heel-toe-downshift required for the turn).
For opentrack 996 drivers, what is your technique for turning the 996 effectively?
How do you tune in more neutral handling with the 996?
Should I be looking at the Boxster S instead (better static fr/rr weight distribution and neutral handling)?
Thanks!
-Manny
I've track-driven 50/50 fr/rr static weight distributed cars (FD Rx7 and E36 M3), and love the neutral handling. Both the 3rd generation Rx7 and 2nd generation M3 have enough hp/tq to power-on oversteer to turn the car through the apex. This has been my track-driving style for 10 years.
I've tried a student's '99 996 in Oct 2004, and while it did understeer more than I liked, I found rotating the car took a little different approach--late braking with a bit more braking while turning, and blending the throttle in early (left-foot braking helps tremendously when there's no heel-toe-downshift required for the turn).
For opentrack 996 drivers, what is your technique for turning the 996 effectively?
How do you tune in more neutral handling with the 996?
Should I be looking at the Boxster S instead (better static fr/rr weight distribution and neutral handling)?
Thanks!
-Manny
I'm not sure about autocross but on larger tracks the understeer problem with a 996 is drastically overstated and can easily be fixed a bunch of different ways. (dampers, sway bars, wheels, tire size, etc.) If you upgrade your suspension like most do you will find that car is very tune-able. You can make it handle however you want. I've always thought the minimum track suspension should include two way adjustable dampers and adjustable sway bars for tuning but many are happy with just PSS9s or even ROW M030.
I think I've told you this before but the way you drive the car fast is brake a little early, a little light and trail brake on nearly every corner. If you're good you'll turn in pretty early and get the car rotating under braking so that even though you're apexing early you've got the car headed in the right direction. Then it's just a matter of giving it as much throttle as you can and still keep it on the track.
Do not over slow the car. Take advantage of the great chassis and carry a lot of speed through the corner. Disclaimer, if you screw any of this up you crash so adjust for your skill level. BTW, LSD will always induce a little understeer. Even partially locked rearends don't like to turn.
Jim
04-02-2007, 12:45 PM
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Understood. Any thoughts on the Boxster S's handling compared with 996? Thanks!
Originally Posted by JimB
Manny,
I'm not sure about autocross but on larger tracks the understeer problem with a 996 is drastically overstated and can easily be fixed a bunch of different ways. (dampers, sway bars, wheels, tire size, etc.) If you upgrade your suspension like most do you will find that car is very tune-able. You can make it handle however you want. I've always thought the minimum track suspension should include two way adjustable dampers and adjustable sway bars for tuning but many are happy with just PSS9s or even ROW M030.
I think I've told you this before but the way you drive the car fast is brake a little early, a little light and trail brake on nearly every corner. If you're good you'll turn in pretty early and get the car rotating under braking so that even though you're apexing early you've got the car headed in the right direction. Then it's just a matter of giving it as much throttle as you can and still keep it on the track. Do not over slow the car. Take advantage of the great chassis and carry a lot of speed through the corner. Disclaimer, if you screw any of this up you crash so adjust for your skill level.
BTW, LSD will always induce a little understeer. Even partially locked rearends don't like to turn.
Jim
I'm not sure about autocross but on larger tracks the understeer problem with a 996 is drastically overstated and can easily be fixed a bunch of different ways. (dampers, sway bars, wheels, tire size, etc.) If you upgrade your suspension like most do you will find that car is very tune-able. You can make it handle however you want. I've always thought the minimum track suspension should include two way adjustable dampers and adjustable sway bars for tuning but many are happy with just PSS9s or even ROW M030.
I think I've told you this before but the way you drive the car fast is brake a little early, a little light and trail brake on nearly every corner. If you're good you'll turn in pretty early and get the car rotating under braking so that even though you're apexing early you've got the car headed in the right direction. Then it's just a matter of giving it as much throttle as you can and still keep it on the track.
Do not over slow the car. Take advantage of the great chassis and carry a lot of speed through the corner. Disclaimer, if you screw any of this up you crash so adjust for your skill level. BTW, LSD will always induce a little understeer. Even partially locked rearends don't like to turn.
Jim
04-02-2007, 12:50 PM
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I agree with most of what's said above. The 996 understeers at low speeds, but on track it's not a big deal and can be tuned out.
There's nothing magic or even particularly desirable about 50/50 weight distribution, and on track a rear bias is (basically) always better. The "issue" with the 996 in slow turns is with where the weight is (in the trunk) - it just can't turn as quickly as a mid-engne car with similar weight distribution.
There's nothing magic or even particularly desirable about 50/50 weight distribution, and on track a rear bias is (basically) always better. The "issue" with the 996 in slow turns is with where the weight is (in the trunk) - it just can't turn as quickly as a mid-engne car with similar weight distribution.
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04-02-2007, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SleepRM3
Understood. Any thoughts on the Boxster S's handling compared with 996? Thanks!
I like the mid-engine balance better myself...
04-02-2007, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by RamVA
There's nothing magic or even particularly desirable about 50/50 weight distribution, and on track a rear bias is (basically) always better. The "issue" with the 996 in slow turns is with where the weight is (in the trunk) - it just can't turn as quickly as a mid-engne car with similar weight distribution.
Manny,
A Cayman S with similar power will out-perform a 996 any day. The Boxster S is great but gives up a lot of stiffness to the 996 and Cayman.
04-02-2007, 03:50 PM
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I'm pretty sure the 917 numbers are without driver or fuel. Put 350 lbs in the front third of the car and the number change drastically.
Having said that, I was refering to the mid engine layout more that the specific weight distribution. As you know, it's not just the distribution but where the weight is located.
Having said that, I was refering to the mid engine layout more that the specific weight distribution. As you know, it's not just the distribution but where the weight is located.
04-02-2007, 04:36 PM
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986S handling
Yes, I test drove a new Boxster S last year--probably the best handling car I've ever experienced--one word describes its handling response--"telepathic". I can't imagine what the Cayman S is like.
The new Cayman S has a 3.4-L 295 hp motor, but I understand it's not the same motor as the '99 996's 3.4-L motor?
Sadly my budget limits me to used P_cars, and thus I'm looking at the '99 996es, and am wondering about the handling differences between Mk I 996 and 986S/987S cars--and whether I'll like the 996 or be able to adapt to the rear-engine weight bias?
Thanks for the replies, gentlemen!
-Manny
The new Cayman S has a 3.4-L 295 hp motor, but I understand it's not the same motor as the '99 996's 3.4-L motor?
Sadly my budget limits me to used P_cars, and thus I'm looking at the '99 996es, and am wondering about the handling differences between Mk I 996 and 986S/987S cars--and whether I'll like the 996 or be able to adapt to the rear-engine weight bias?
Thanks for the replies, gentlemen!
-Manny
Originally Posted by P-Car fanatic
Go and drive one - i think it comes down to personal preference. I like the mid-engine balance better myself...
04-02-2007, 04:56 PM
#13
Originally Posted by JimB
I'm pretty sure the 917 numbers are without driver or fuel. Put 350 lbs in the front third of the car and the number change drastically.
Having said that, I was refering to the mid engine layout more that the specific weight distribution. As you know, it's not just the distribution but where the weight is located.
Having said that, I was refering to the mid engine layout more that the specific weight distribution. As you know, it's not just the distribution but where the weight is located.
Bill
04-02-2007, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by SleepRM3
Yes, I test drove a new Boxster S last year--probably the best handling car I've ever experienced--one word describes its handling response--"telepathic". I can't imagine what the Cayman S is like.
The new Cayman S has a 3.4-L 295 hp motor, but I understand it's not the same motor as the '99 996's 3.4-L motor?
Sadly my budget limits me to used P_cars, and thus I'm looking at the '99 996es, and am wondering about the handling differences between Mk I 996 and 986S/987S cars--and whether I'll like the 996 or be able to adapt to the rear-engine weight bias?
Thanks for the replies, gentlemen!
-Manny
The new Cayman S has a 3.4-L 295 hp motor, but I understand it's not the same motor as the '99 996's 3.4-L motor?
Sadly my budget limits me to used P_cars, and thus I'm looking at the '99 996es, and am wondering about the handling differences between Mk I 996 and 986S/987S cars--and whether I'll like the 996 or be able to adapt to the rear-engine weight bias?
Thanks for the replies, gentlemen!
-Manny
I have both a 986 and a 996 and I actually prefer the handling of the 986. IMHO the 986 is more "telepathic" (as you put it) that the 996. This is not to say the 996 handles badly (far from it), but given equal motors and brakes, I'd bet I could turn a better lap time in a Cayman than a 996.
I would not worry too much about the lack of an LSD (if you get a car without). 986's and 996's really don't have much problem putting the power down on corner exit as long as it's dry.
Good luck!
