weight difference of C4 cab vs C2 coupe?
02-03-2007, 12:44 PM
#16
I found a road test in Car & Driver for an 03' C4. In the test, it weighed a chunky 3614 lbs or 465 lbs more than the tested weight of their long term C2 coupe. There are 2 things that need to take into account: the cab was a tip, but the test weight does not include a hardtop. Keep in mind that this is not the theoretical differences that seem to keep being posted here, but actual tested on scales.
Here is another interesting comparison. The 01' Turbo 6-sp they tested weighed 3500 lbs on the scales (only 76 lbs more than their test C4S 6-sp). The 05' Turbo S cab 6-sp with PCCBs and no hardtop weighed 3840 lbs on the scales or 340 lbs more than the coupe despite being on the same chassis (no C4 to C4S like increases). Just think about the difference if it had the steel brakes and a hardtop.
You can play with numbers all you want, but the bottom line reality is always the same. Cabs will always weigh substantually more than coupes and never have as stiff a chassis. Keep in mind the weight not only hurts in acceleration, but also braking since you are slowing more weight with the same size brakes. Hence, they will always be the lower performer to have the ability to drop the top over a coupe. Porsches 4WD may be great to have when you lose traction, but since it is only engaged 5% of the time it spends 95% of the time just adding extra weight.
Here is another interesting comparison. The 01' Turbo 6-sp they tested weighed 3500 lbs on the scales (only 76 lbs more than their test C4S 6-sp). The 05' Turbo S cab 6-sp with PCCBs and no hardtop weighed 3840 lbs on the scales or 340 lbs more than the coupe despite being on the same chassis (no C4 to C4S like increases). Just think about the difference if it had the steel brakes and a hardtop.
You can play with numbers all you want, but the bottom line reality is always the same. Cabs will always weigh substantually more than coupes and never have as stiff a chassis. Keep in mind the weight not only hurts in acceleration, but also braking since you are slowing more weight with the same size brakes. Hence, they will always be the lower performer to have the ability to drop the top over a coupe. Porsches 4WD may be great to have when you lose traction, but since it is only engaged 5% of the time it spends 95% of the time just adding extra weight.
02-03-2007, 03:05 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by 02 Carrera
Porsches 4WD may be great to have when you lose traction, but since it is only engaged 5% of the time it spends 95% of the time just adding extra weight.
02-03-2007, 04:07 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by newport996
Have you driven a AWD Porsche? The system is not working 5% of the time, its ALWAYS working. When cornering, it takes power from the wheels loseing traction and transfers it INSTANTLY to the wheels not losing traction....So if you are cornering hard....you can easily drive to the limits of the traction...when the wheels start to slip, you can step on the gas and the car will in a sense turn itself around the corner....while ACCELERATING...this can slingshot out of corners...its not active 5% of the time...If you know how to drive an AWD car, there is plenty of performance that can be gained...its different completely from driving a RWD car. Its all a matter of how you wanna go through corners...sideways, or not....I think its funny when the C2 guys say driving a car that doesnt easily get sideways is not fun...to me, fast and controlled cornering is fun....
02-03-2007, 04:17 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
Yes I seem to remeber the Audi Qautros that were banned because they had an unfair advantage over the 2wd cars...Look at the rules in F1, CART, LeMans, and Daytona prototypes....you will see why there are no AWD cars there....In SCCA I also recall the Eagle Talon, an AWD Mitsubishi CLEANING UP....Craig T Nelson was driving it....
02-03-2007, 04:19 PM
#23
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Ha ha ha.... You got me there. 
I guess I'm referring to cars that race on pavement. And actually, rally cars don't apply because they're not purpose-built for racing. Impreza's are passenger cars last I checked. Same goes for Touring cars, the lower class GT cars, etc.
I guess I'm referring to cars that race on pavement. And actually, rally cars don't apply because they're not purpose-built for racing. Impreza's are passenger cars last I checked. Same goes for Touring cars, the lower class GT cars, etc.
02-03-2007, 04:26 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by Russ Murphy
Ha ha ha.... You got me there. I guess I'm referring to cars that race on pavement. And actually, rally cars don't apply because they're not purpose-built for racing. Impreza's are passenger cars last I checked. Same goes for Touring cars, the lower class GT cars, etc.
I guess I'm referring to cars that race on pavement. And actually, rally cars don't apply because they're not purpose-built for racing. Impreza's are passenger cars last I checked. Same goes for Touring cars, the lower class GT cars, etc.
02-03-2007, 04:59 PM
#25
Originally Posted by Russ Murphy
And actually, rally cars don't apply because they're not purpose-built for racing.
And that stuff the car is on in the third pic, looks kinda like paving....
02-03-2007, 05:18 PM
#26
Banned
Originally Posted by 02 Carrera
Those are unloaded base curb weights and are not reflective of real world loaded weights.
Car and Drivers 99' high option C2 coupe (18" turbo look wheels, Hi-Fi and digital sound, but no power seates) weighed 3149 lbs. So much for the 99' being so light. There is also a big misconceptions about the later cars being a lot heavier (except for the C4S on the bigger turbo chassis). You have to keep in mind that these are base curb weights unladen without any options or fluids. Porsche factory claims the 02-04' is 20 kg (44 lbs) heavier than the early 99'. That difference is completely evaporated when you look at how much less the later 18" Carrera wheels than the earlier 18" turbo-looks and the extra standard equipment in the later cars that was optional and not taken into account with the older cars. Car & Driver's 03' C4S coupe test car weighed 3424 lbs. The C2 tip cab they tested was around 3600 lbs. These are fully loaded cars tested on scales, not someone's theory.
Keep in mind the the C4 chassis (without the AWD drivetrain) weighs over 75 lbs more than the C2 chassis. This is the reason why a GT3 is so much heavier than a regular C2. I don't believe any of the major magazines tested a C4 cab, but the reality is that this is a 400-500 lb difference. Add another 120 lbs if it is a C4S over a C4.
The best way to realistically look at it is to weigh the car. I had my car on corner weight scales and it weighed 3130 lbs on the scales (02' C2 6-sp, 1/2 tank gas, no driver, 18" Carrera wheels, Bi-Xenon, Bose, factory power seats, spare and tools still in the truck, no rear seat and Fabspeed mufflers). With the rear seat and original mufflers it will be 50-60 lbs heavier. Keep also in mind the weight of gas. Gas weighs about 6 lbs a gallon which means there is about a 100 lb difference between a full and an empty tank.
Car and Drivers 99' high option C2 coupe (18" turbo look wheels, Hi-Fi and digital sound, but no power seates) weighed 3149 lbs. So much for the 99' being so light. There is also a big misconceptions about the later cars being a lot heavier (except for the C4S on the bigger turbo chassis). You have to keep in mind that these are base curb weights unladen without any options or fluids. Porsche factory claims the 02-04' is 20 kg (44 lbs) heavier than the early 99'. That difference is completely evaporated when you look at how much less the later 18" Carrera wheels than the earlier 18" turbo-looks and the extra standard equipment in the later cars that was optional and not taken into account with the older cars. Car & Driver's 03' C4S coupe test car weighed 3424 lbs. The C2 tip cab they tested was around 3600 lbs. These are fully loaded cars tested on scales, not someone's theory.
Keep in mind the the C4 chassis (without the AWD drivetrain) weighs over 75 lbs more than the C2 chassis. This is the reason why a GT3 is so much heavier than a regular C2. I don't believe any of the major magazines tested a C4 cab, but the reality is that this is a 400-500 lb difference. Add another 120 lbs if it is a C4S over a C4.
The best way to realistically look at it is to weigh the car. I had my car on corner weight scales and it weighed 3130 lbs on the scales (02' C2 6-sp, 1/2 tank gas, no driver, 18" Carrera wheels, Bi-Xenon, Bose, factory power seats, spare and tools still in the truck, no rear seat and Fabspeed mufflers). With the rear seat and original mufflers it will be 50-60 lbs heavier. Keep also in mind the weight of gas. Gas weighs about 6 lbs a gallon which means there is about a 100 lb difference between a full and an empty tank.
02-03-2007, 06:01 PM
#27
Is AWD better than 2WD? Yes, the Audis for a very short time had their advantage. Why? Because they were initially allowed to run the same minimum weight as their 2WD competition. Given that their drivetrains weigh more, they were allowed to lighted other areas of the chassis to get down closer to minimum weight while the same changes would have put the RWD cars under weight. With the increase in minimum weight for the AWD cars to even out the rules for all, their dominance quickly ended. Before people start whining about this being unfare, it is a fact that a 4WD drivetrain weighs more than a 2WD. If you allow the same weight, the 4WD cars are givne permission to cheat. The same thing happened in Touring Car. With the weight more evened out to reflect the actual chassis weight. Now the RWD BMWs are the cars to beat.
Even test driver Walter Rohrl goes 6-7 seconds faster in the 2WD version over the 4WD version of every generation 911 at the Nurburgring. For the discussion at hand, with the street cars AWD is always heavier than the same car in 2WD. That weighs effects everything the car does. If you are losing traction, then you can get a benefit from it. The rest of the time it is just extra weight. Why are the best handling factory 911's (GT3 and GT2) 2WD? Weight. Keep in mind also that both cars are 2WD, but built on the 4WD chassis which was made stronger for the extra weight of the 4WD drivetrain in front.
I can understand the advantage in Rallying where you are driving studded tires on dirt. There is obviously an advantage to AWD where traction is extremely limited. But on the street or track in the dry? For my local region, we only had 1 serious DE incident last year. No, it was not a rear end heavy 2WD 911, but a front end heavy 4WD Lancer Evolution.
Even test driver Walter Rohrl goes 6-7 seconds faster in the 2WD version over the 4WD version of every generation 911 at the Nurburgring. For the discussion at hand, with the street cars AWD is always heavier than the same car in 2WD. That weighs effects everything the car does. If you are losing traction, then you can get a benefit from it. The rest of the time it is just extra weight. Why are the best handling factory 911's (GT3 and GT2) 2WD? Weight. Keep in mind also that both cars are 2WD, but built on the 4WD chassis which was made stronger for the extra weight of the 4WD drivetrain in front.
I can understand the advantage in Rallying where you are driving studded tires on dirt. There is obviously an advantage to AWD where traction is extremely limited. But on the street or track in the dry? For my local region, we only had 1 serious DE incident last year. No, it was not a rear end heavy 2WD 911, but a front end heavy 4WD Lancer Evolution.
02-03-2007, 09:19 PM
#28
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by 02 Carrera
Is AWD better than 2WD? Yes, the Audis for a very short time had their advantage. Why? Because they were initially allowed to run the same minimum weight as their 2WD competition. Given that their drivetrains weigh more, they were allowed to lighted other areas of the chassis to get down closer to minimum weight while the same changes would have put the RWD cars under weight. With the increase in minimum weight for the AWD cars to even out the rules for all, their dominance quickly ended. Before people start whining about this being unfare, it is a fact that a 4WD drivetrain weighs more than a 2WD. If you allow the same weight, the 4WD cars are givne permission to cheat. The same thing happened in Touring Car. With the weight more evened out to reflect the actual chassis weight. Now the RWD BMWs are the cars to beat.
Even test driver Walter Rohrl goes 6-7 seconds faster in the 2WD version over the 4WD version of every generation 911 at the Nurburgring. For the discussion at hand, with the street cars AWD is always heavier than the same car in 2WD. That weighs effects everything the car does. If you are losing traction, then you can get a benefit from it. The rest of the time it is just extra weight. Why are the best handling factory 911's (GT3 and GT2) 2WD? Weight. Keep in mind also that both cars are 2WD, but built on the 4WD chassis which was made stronger for the extra weight of the 4WD drivetrain in front.
I can understand the advantage in Rallying where you are driving studded tires on dirt. There is obviously an advantage to AWD where traction is extremely limited. But on the street or track in the dry? For my local region, we only had 1 serious DE incident last year. No, it was not a rear end heavy 2WD 911, but a front end heavy 4WD Lancer Evolution.
Even test driver Walter Rohrl goes 6-7 seconds faster in the 2WD version over the 4WD version of every generation 911 at the Nurburgring. For the discussion at hand, with the street cars AWD is always heavier than the same car in 2WD. That weighs effects everything the car does. If you are losing traction, then you can get a benefit from it. The rest of the time it is just extra weight. Why are the best handling factory 911's (GT3 and GT2) 2WD? Weight. Keep in mind also that both cars are 2WD, but built on the 4WD chassis which was made stronger for the extra weight of the 4WD drivetrain in front.
I can understand the advantage in Rallying where you are driving studded tires on dirt. There is obviously an advantage to AWD where traction is extremely limited. But on the street or track in the dry? For my local region, we only had 1 serious DE incident last year. No, it was not a rear end heavy 2WD 911, but a front end heavy 4WD Lancer Evolution.
02-03-2007, 10:56 PM
#29
Banned
Originally Posted by newport996
So what we are saying...given a car of equal weight, AWD is superior.
02-04-2007, 01:21 AM
#30
Cap'n Insane the Engorged
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Originally Posted by Benjamin Choi
For feeling grippier, yea sure. For going around a timed lap around a race course, hecks NO.
Obviously, why the CGT, GT2, GT3 aren't AWD. My shifter kart is 2WD and weighs less than 400 lbs too. If all you care about is the track, 2WD is definitely the way to go. The difference just isn't as big as some make it to be. Some factors to consider are the percentage of street to track driving you do and what happens if it rains on track day...
Last edited by Rob in WA; 02-04-2007 at 04:07 AM.