Why don't all Porsche owners track their cars?
03-30-2003, 05:05 PM
#46
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Todd,
A few corrections:
At the Porsche Driving Experience (PDE Master's) the instructors do get in the car with you, and they allow passing on the straights.
I know because I did the program last week. The Barber track is something else.
The PDE is an excellent program, and should be used as a base or complement to your program. The focus is more on the fundamentals of car control before going on the track and also on what is likely to happen on the track at speed.
Your program is aimed (IMO) at building experience on the track for some, and providing track time for those with experience.
I recommend them both, highly. They feed of each other!
A few corrections:
At the Porsche Driving Experience (PDE Master's) the instructors do get in the car with you, and they allow passing on the straights.
I know because I did the program last week. The Barber track is something else.
The PDE is an excellent program, and should be used as a base or complement to your program. The focus is more on the fundamentals of car control before going on the track and also on what is likely to happen on the track at speed.
Your program is aimed (IMO) at building experience on the track for some, and providing track time for those with experience.
I recommend them both, highly. They feed of each other!
03-30-2003, 05:21 PM
#47
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Hi Mike:
I guess I should have been clearer about no instructors being in the car with the students at the PDE. I was referring to the lapping portion of the experience, where the students are on the track. And fwiw, I agree with Hurley! I've trained a couple people to single clutch and heel toe rather than double clutch and it's helped them, one dramatically. I know people who are used to it are very fast at double clutching, but it's impossible for it to be as fast as a single clutch heel toe maneuver. Otoh, since I've very rarely driven cars that needed to be double clutched, if you and I were competing in cars that had crash boxes, I'd be toast! :-)
As for the PDE instructors watching from corners and not getting in the cars when they're on track, I agree that things can be learned this way. However, it can't possibly be as beneficial as having the instructor right there in the car with you. With formula cars there's not choice since they only have one seat, but with street cars, the passenger seat provides a huge advantage that I feel should be utilized. I was told the reason it isn't at PDE, and it's quite simple: the instructors aren't paid enough to risk their lives with a novice driving a car with them in it. As someone who, like all club and DE instructors, only instructs from the passenger seat, this is a different way of thinking. Otoh, perhaps if I had David's or Hurley's experience and credentials, I might be more likely to feel this way. :-)
You're right about the PDE providing a fairly unique experience in allowing participants to drive someone else's 996. However, customers pay dearly for the privilege; 2 days is around $2500, not including airfare to get there. For a lot less money, a 996 owner not wanting to put his/her car on the track could rent a 996($650/day in L.A., likely less elsewhere) and attend a DE event. That would be two days at a TracQuest event with money left over, during which the student would get 6 to 8 hours of track time, with an instructor next to him the entire time. And that would just be behind the wheel. Most students get another 2 to 4 hours of track time riding as a passenger in instructors' cars (or in their own cars with instructors driving if they so desire). As far as bang for the buck, I think a lot more would be learned after such a 2 day DE event. However, the one thing the student admittedly would not be able to say after a DE event is that s/he got to meet Hurley Haywood or David Murry!
Anyway, I'd love for you to join us at Mid-Ohio if your schedule allows. You're correct - it would be a great way for you to familiarize yourself with the track. If you haven't checked the schedule, my first event there in 2003 is coming up in 2 weeks (Mon.-Tues., April 14-15) and the second one is on Mon.-Tues., Sept. 1-2 (Labor Day and the following Tuesday).
I guess I should have been clearer about no instructors being in the car with the students at the PDE. I was referring to the lapping portion of the experience, where the students are on the track. And fwiw, I agree with Hurley! I've trained a couple people to single clutch and heel toe rather than double clutch and it's helped them, one dramatically. I know people who are used to it are very fast at double clutching, but it's impossible for it to be as fast as a single clutch heel toe maneuver. Otoh, since I've very rarely driven cars that needed to be double clutched, if you and I were competing in cars that had crash boxes, I'd be toast! :-)
As for the PDE instructors watching from corners and not getting in the cars when they're on track, I agree that things can be learned this way. However, it can't possibly be as beneficial as having the instructor right there in the car with you. With formula cars there's not choice since they only have one seat, but with street cars, the passenger seat provides a huge advantage that I feel should be utilized. I was told the reason it isn't at PDE, and it's quite simple: the instructors aren't paid enough to risk their lives with a novice driving a car with them in it. As someone who, like all club and DE instructors, only instructs from the passenger seat, this is a different way of thinking. Otoh, perhaps if I had David's or Hurley's experience and credentials, I might be more likely to feel this way. :-)
You're right about the PDE providing a fairly unique experience in allowing participants to drive someone else's 996. However, customers pay dearly for the privilege; 2 days is around $2500, not including airfare to get there. For a lot less money, a 996 owner not wanting to put his/her car on the track could rent a 996($650/day in L.A., likely less elsewhere) and attend a DE event. That would be two days at a TracQuest event with money left over, during which the student would get 6 to 8 hours of track time, with an instructor next to him the entire time. And that would just be behind the wheel. Most students get another 2 to 4 hours of track time riding as a passenger in instructors' cars (or in their own cars with instructors driving if they so desire). As far as bang for the buck, I think a lot more would be learned after such a 2 day DE event. However, the one thing the student admittedly would not be able to say after a DE event is that s/he got to meet Hurley Haywood or David Murry!
Anyway, I'd love for you to join us at Mid-Ohio if your schedule allows. You're correct - it would be a great way for you to familiarize yourself with the track. If you haven't checked the schedule, my first event there in 2003 is coming up in 2 weeks (Mon.-Tues., April 14-15) and the second one is on Mon.-Tues., Sept. 1-2 (Labor Day and the following Tuesday).
03-30-2003, 05:21 PM
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Colm
How did you like the Master's Course. What did they cover. Is it two days or three?
The newbies that I did the original course are interested in the advanced one.
thanks in advance
How did you like the Master's Course. What did they cover. Is it two days or three?
The newbies that I did the original course are interested in the advanced one.
thanks in advance
03-30-2003, 05:27 PM
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Hi Colm:
Very interesting comments. PDE must have changed its program since it moved to the Barber track, perhaps because it's a lot more forgiving than Road Atlanta? I talked with them at Road Atlanta and they told me that the instructors did not get into the cars with the students while they were lapping. There was also no passing. They tried to separate the students into groups by speed, since in a ducks in a row format, the slowest person in the group pretty much dictates how fast the entire group can go.
In any event, I'm glad you enjoyed the PDE, and glad that they've changed it a bit. I was pretty candid, albeit polite, in telling them that I thought having instructors in the cars makes a huge difference in what a student gets out of a school. I think the changes you've mentioned will make a good program even better.
So tell us about the Barber track. Generally I've heard exciting things, but I've yet to hear anything from someone who's actually driven it.
Very interesting comments. PDE must have changed its program since it moved to the Barber track, perhaps because it's a lot more forgiving than Road Atlanta? I talked with them at Road Atlanta and they told me that the instructors did not get into the cars with the students while they were lapping. There was also no passing. They tried to separate the students into groups by speed, since in a ducks in a row format, the slowest person in the group pretty much dictates how fast the entire group can go.
In any event, I'm glad you enjoyed the PDE, and glad that they've changed it a bit. I was pretty candid, albeit polite, in telling them that I thought having instructors in the cars makes a huge difference in what a student gets out of a school. I think the changes you've mentioned will make a good program even better.
So tell us about the Barber track. Generally I've heard exciting things, but I've yet to hear anything from someone who's actually driven it.
03-30-2003, 05:51 PM
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Mike,
I liked it a lot, it's two day program. I would suggest, if you can go with a group of similar capability and you can set your own pace (within reason) within that group. Friendly competition!
The Barber track is technical and difficult.
It's more expensive than other programs, but they provide the cars and their Instructors are the top of the heap. In my opinion well worth the money.
The skid pad exercises are very helpful. You get all the driving you can handle.
On the second day, when you go out on your own (with about 8 other cars) you are limited to 6500 RPM in 4th gear. This was more than enough for me, and since you have an open track you drive as fast as you can, comfortably.
To put it in perspective my objective was not to be the fastest, but to be the smooth, and drive the correct line. I think I was about 4th fastest in a group of 16, one guy lapped me twice in a 30 minute session on a 2.3 mile track. What a driver! So it caters to all levels. There is no timing allowed.
Having been driven around by David Murry (I can say that!) and having held on for dear life I can say that I have no desire to drive at the speeds that he did, even if I could.
If I were 25 years younger then I'd be chomping at the bit!
The hot laps are very useful because it brings back peerspective after 2 days on the track. They make you realize that you have only tapped the surface, humbles you and sets you up for more experience at Tracquest like events.
If you have more questions e-mail me.
I liked it a lot, it's two day program. I would suggest, if you can go with a group of similar capability and you can set your own pace (within reason) within that group. Friendly competition!
The Barber track is technical and difficult.
It's more expensive than other programs, but they provide the cars and their Instructors are the top of the heap. In my opinion well worth the money.
The skid pad exercises are very helpful. You get all the driving you can handle.
On the second day, when you go out on your own (with about 8 other cars) you are limited to 6500 RPM in 4th gear. This was more than enough for me, and since you have an open track you drive as fast as you can, comfortably.
To put it in perspective my objective was not to be the fastest, but to be the smooth, and drive the correct line. I think I was about 4th fastest in a group of 16, one guy lapped me twice in a 30 minute session on a 2.3 mile track. What a driver! So it caters to all levels. There is no timing allowed.
Having been driven around by David Murry (I can say that!) and having held on for dear life I can say that I have no desire to drive at the speeds that he did, even if I could.
If I were 25 years younger then I'd be chomping at the bit!
The hot laps are very useful because it brings back peerspective after 2 days on the track. They make you realize that you have only tapped the surface, humbles you and sets you up for more experience at Tracquest like events.
If you have more questions e-mail me.
03-30-2003, 06:09 PM
#51
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Hi Colm:
Reading your additional comments, while the PDE may have changed their format, I now know why what you've described looks very different from what I saw. You took the Advanced program, with which I'm not familiar. I saw, and therefore was discussing, the beginnner program. Do you know if that's been changed, or is it as I described? Also, if you don't mind posting it, how much was the Advanced program, and many days did it entail?
I look forward to seeing you at another TracQuest event this year. Sadly, I've only got 3 more on the West Coast at Thunderhill (June), Willow Springs (September - big track) and Infineon (December). Do you have any plans to attend one or more of these?
Reading your additional comments, while the PDE may have changed their format, I now know why what you've described looks very different from what I saw. You took the Advanced program, with which I'm not familiar. I saw, and therefore was discussing, the beginnner program. Do you know if that's been changed, or is it as I described? Also, if you don't mind posting it, how much was the Advanced program, and many days did it entail?
I look forward to seeing you at another TracQuest event this year. Sadly, I've only got 3 more on the West Coast at Thunderhill (June), Willow Springs (September - big track) and Infineon (December). Do you have any plans to attend one or more of these?
03-30-2003, 06:13 PM
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The Barber track is technical, because:
corners have elevation changes,
straights are relatively short (one with esses, and dangerous)
a laguna type cork-screw, but more difficult,
a b**ch of a hairpin, with an elevation change
a decreasing radius sweeper
an up-hill, corner braking, off camber 90 turn.
In addition, there are blind turn in points for some of the corners, where faith is required.
It's more difficult than Road Atlanta, although the straights are shorter; and the back straight (with the esses) is the most dangerous part of the track.
corners have elevation changes,
straights are relatively short (one with esses, and dangerous)
a laguna type cork-screw, but more difficult,
a b**ch of a hairpin, with an elevation change
a decreasing radius sweeper
an up-hill, corner braking, off camber 90 turn.
In addition, there are blind turn in points for some of the corners, where faith is required.
It's more difficult than Road Atlanta, although the straights are shorter; and the back straight (with the esses) is the most dangerous part of the track.
03-30-2003, 06:26 PM
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Todd,
It's a two day event, and I don't remember the exact price. I think it's in the same price range as the Beginner program, which hasn't changed format. Well worth the price of admission!
Yes, I will do future Tracquest events, schedule permitting.
It's a two day event, and I don't remember the exact price. I think it's in the same price range as the Beginner program, which hasn't changed format. Well worth the price of admission!
Yes, I will do future Tracquest events, schedule permitting.
03-30-2003, 06:47 PM
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Hi Todd
No matter what aspect of motorsports we consider, we seem to bump into "trade-offs". I agree having an instructor in the car with you can be invaluable. And most of the lapping at PDE is without an instructor. That's where you guys have an advantage without a doubt.
Timing is also always a problem it seems. I'm doing a practice day on April 14th at Gingerman in prep for the July Club Race, and wil be at Road America for the Club Race Labor Day, so I can't do that one either. I'm not running at Mid-O this year as it's graduation weekend for my son (Back to positive cash flow at last!). Hopefully I'll be able to catch up with you next year. I'm sure those rave reviews I've heard are well deserved - especially in regards to the evening segments!
Finally, thanks for being a Sponsor. We all get a lot out of Rennlist, and your support is much appreciated.
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No matter what aspect of motorsports we consider, we seem to bump into "trade-offs". I agree having an instructor in the car with you can be invaluable. And most of the lapping at PDE is without an instructor. That's where you guys have an advantage without a doubt.
Timing is also always a problem it seems. I'm doing a practice day on April 14th at Gingerman in prep for the July Club Race, and wil be at Road America for the Club Race Labor Day, so I can't do that one either. I'm not running at Mid-O this year as it's graduation weekend for my son (Back to positive cash flow at last!). Hopefully I'll be able to catch up with you next year. I'm sure those rave reviews I've heard are well deserved - especially in regards to the evening segments!
Finally, thanks for being a Sponsor. We all get a lot out of Rennlist, and your support is much appreciated.
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03-30-2003, 07:18 PM
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Hi Colm
thanks for the update. That guy had to be flying to lap everyone twice in half an hour. I wonder if he was honoring the 4th gear/6500 prm rule.
I think you were wise to concentrate on being smooth rather than fast. I've often found my fastest lap in qualifying is not the one where I thought I'd nailed it, but the one after when I was relaxed.
I know what you mean about 25 years younger, but I still can't get enough of it. DE, lapping, racing, I just love it.
Have a good season.
thanks for the update. That guy had to be flying to lap everyone twice in half an hour. I wonder if he was honoring the 4th gear/6500 prm rule.
I think you were wise to concentrate on being smooth rather than fast. I've often found my fastest lap in qualifying is not the one where I thought I'd nailed it, but the one after when I was relaxed.
I know what you mean about 25 years younger, but I still can't get enough of it. DE, lapping, racing, I just love it.
Have a good season.
04-01-2003, 02:41 AM
#56
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Hi Mike:
I know all about scheduling conflicts! Hopefully you can make Mid-Ohio next year. Additionally, if you want to run some of the other great tracks around the country that are not within reasonable driving distance, I can arrange for arrive-and-drive track-prepped rental cars at most tracks. I'm thinking Road Atlanta, Laguna Seca and Infineon.
As for sponsoring Rennlist, it's truly my pleasure to help to assure that such a worthwhile effort continues. I don't know if you know this, but I was actually one of the founders of Rennlist. Not that we did all that much - it was all Herr Dunkle even back then - but there were about 20 of us on a tiny list serve called "Disgruntled," which John created to discuss problems with Rennlist's predecessor list, Porschefans. Next thing we knew, and actually slightly before we intended, Porschelist (the original name for Rennlist) was live. It's amazing what John has done, starting with one tiny list serve and a bunch of wise guys!
I know all about scheduling conflicts! Hopefully you can make Mid-Ohio next year. Additionally, if you want to run some of the other great tracks around the country that are not within reasonable driving distance, I can arrange for arrive-and-drive track-prepped rental cars at most tracks. I'm thinking Road Atlanta, Laguna Seca and Infineon.
As for sponsoring Rennlist, it's truly my pleasure to help to assure that such a worthwhile effort continues. I don't know if you know this, but I was actually one of the founders of Rennlist. Not that we did all that much - it was all Herr Dunkle even back then - but there were about 20 of us on a tiny list serve called "Disgruntled," which John created to discuss problems with Rennlist's predecessor list, Porschefans. Next thing we knew, and actually slightly before we intended, Porschelist (the original name for Rennlist) was live. It's amazing what John has done, starting with one tiny list serve and a bunch of wise guys!
04-01-2003, 04:49 PM
#58
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by DJ 996:
<strong>Todd,
Are you ever going to have a Traquest event in/near Texas?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">And how about Southern Florida (Homestead, Moroso or Sebring)?
<strong>Todd,
Are you ever going to have a Traquest event in/near Texas?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">And how about Southern Florida (Homestead, Moroso or Sebring)?
04-01-2003, 04:56 PM
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Mike,
Excellent post about the wear & tear.
What many people don't realize is that when they sit on stop & go traffic with their Porsches (with double mocka latte in their hand) that will do more harm to their car than what driving at track does.
Obviously, your suspension bushings, brakes etc. don't get much wear but when you think about all that idling, you can almost hear carbon building up and that car begging:
"please take me to the autobahn or track, please let me run all the way to the red line..."
Excellent post about the wear & tear.
What many people don't realize is that when they sit on stop & go traffic with their Porsches (with double mocka latte in their hand) that will do more harm to their car than what driving at track does.
Obviously, your suspension bushings, brakes etc. don't get much wear but when you think about all that idling, you can almost hear carbon building up and that car begging:
"please take me to the autobahn or track, please let me run all the way to the red line..."
04-01-2003, 06:07 PM
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thanks Finn
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> ...hear carbon building up and that car begging:
"please take me to the autobahn or track, please let me run all the way to the red line..."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Did your car beg in English, Finnish or German?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> ...hear carbon building up and that car begging:
"please take me to the autobahn or track, please let me run all the way to the red line..."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Did your car beg in English, Finnish or German?