Juno

PS: C32, you still haven't told us which two articles said the c32 handles better than the m3. I'm really curious since I'm going to be buying one of those 2 cars soon (I'm on the waiting list for both). Thanks.

Carlos from Spain

MB´s Speedshift is not the second, not the third fastest either. In fact the three fastest are the only three REAL sequencial transmissions (true manual with automatic mode) on the market today. These are Ferrari´s 360M, Alfa Romeos Selespeed and the new BMW M3 SMG II generation. MB´s is still an automatic with manual override, even though is one of the fastest automatic (0-60 figures prove it) its still an automatic so can´t compare to the TRUE sequential. The most advanced now is the BMW M3 SMG II. Derived from Ralph Schum.´s F1 sequential transmition it incorporates some computer aids that are not allowed in F1. For ex: it has incline sensors that adjust the gearing speed and timing depending on the incline of the roads, for example a hiil. It will select the appropriate gear when you BREAK for a curve and not afterward when you ACCELERATE out of the curve so you have instant power. If you hold the gear peadal on the steering wheel down on first gear and you accelerate to raise the rev´s up, when you let go of the gear pedal the car will lauch at those rev´s like dropping the cluth with a manual so you avoid that lag with the automatics when you floor it from a stop light because they start from idle. It has 5 selectable computerised modes in automatic and 6 in sequential mode, the last one (the most aggressive), S6, can only be engaged if you disconect the DSC(BMW´s version of the PSM)
Now thats a transmission I would even think about, being a diehard manual driver (no pain, no gain).

Carlos

Carlos from Spain

Juno, what are you priorities in a car?
Carlos.

Juno

Carlos,
My priorities for a car are:

1. fun to drive
2. looks good
3. quality, reliability, etc.

I don't need 4 doors or backs seats. If I could afford a 996TT, I'd get it. The regular 996 is my choice in that price range (over the M5; E55 is not an option). For the $50K range, I don't think you can beat the M3 (given MY priorities). The C32 is not offered with a manual, so it loses a lot of points in my view. Also, I prefer the M3's looks. And I believe the M3 has superior handling, but what do I know? I've never driven a c32! Oh, and I didn't forget about the Boxster S. If I didn't hate convertibles, I would have bought one months ago instead of waiting on the M3 list!

BTW, I spec'ed out an M3 today with my dealer. I'll be getting my c32 deposit back on monday.

Carlos from Spain

June, congrats. If those are your priorities you made a great choice IMO. Here is why:
The C32 AMG employs a V6 3.2l (354HP) engine with a SUPERCHARGER which produces loads of low end torque for comfortable driving since the engine doesn´t need to downshift as much due to its elasticity, and its also cheap to build. But the drawback is that supercharged engines lack end power and are lazy to rev so its not very sporty thats why its not used in competition (other cars that I know of that use it are Jag XKR, Aston Martin DB7/Vantage and the GM 3.8 V6 enginge... not exactly pure sport cars but more confort oriented). Supercharging also increases fuel consumption. The M3 has the same displacement but uses a L-6 (inline 6 is more efficient and smother than V6 but less space efficient so no good for small cars)ATMOSPHERIC engine (343HP) with the HIGH ENGINE SPEED CONCEPT and Variable Valve Timming(VVT) ("double vanos" in BMW M3) to be able to pull 107 HP per litre from an atmospheric engine. The result is that it rev´s to 8000RPM so it has to employ expensive materials to tolerate this engine speeds but give the car a special caracter (other cars that use VVT is F360M, Lamb Diablo SV and of course, Porsche´s Variocam). This is why F1 cars for example rev up to 18,000RPM because at high engine speeds the more power and the engine is quick responding and faster reving. For example a tracktor with the same power of a F1 will have 5 times more torque but doesn´t rev or accelerate much (though pulls like hell) and a F1 has similar torque to a C32/M3 but at 18,000 RPM it flies!
The C32 uses a 5-speed and automatic transmission standard( speedshift is 35% fatser that C-class auto) but the M3 uses a 6-speed manual or optional sequential so C32 is more confortable but can´t compare to a sequetial transmission wich is again the choice in competition.
In terms of weight, the C32 is 150 Kg heavier (partly due to the transmission) thus hindering handling and also the power to weight ratio (C32 4.78 Kg/HP, M3 4.57 Kg/HP) so you can expect better acceleration from the M3 combined with the transmission differences (in Europe official O-100 Km/h are M3=5.2 sec and C32=5.4 sec).
You´ll find the M3 suspensions a bit harder (especially with the op. 19" wheels... a must) because they are tunned more for the handling and sportiness and the C32 though still hard will be more on the confort-soft side. So its a personal choice here.
The C32 has 4-doors so more accesability to the rear seats but the M3 with 2-door is more sporty looking (along with the powerdome, side grills and 4 exhaust tips). If you consider trunk space important, they both have fair trunks but the C32´s is 13% larger.
And last but not least is the price, because with the difference in price you can load the M3 with a few mod´s (chip-exhaust, SMG trans,aerokit, etc) to your liking.
So bottom line is that they are both great cars but with distinc caracters, one sportiers the other more confortable oriented. So its a matter of your own preferences. My choice is clear
Carlos

Juno

You're preaching to the choir, Carlos!
I agree with most of the things you said about the M3. I didn't find the ride too harsh for my tastes, though. I was only on the c32 waiting list because I wanted to cover all bases. When one hears the hype (way before the car ever comes out), it's hard not to think that finally MB wants to compete with Motorsport. Reality is proving otherwise...

Oh, and since I'm in the states, I can't get the 19" wheels (or the cross-drilled, floating rotors).

Carlos from Spain

June, drop a post on your impressions on the M3 when you get it! That engine (MSS 54) is a blast! Did I forget to mention the aluminum hood and unique rear variable viscous differential?
Too bad about the 19" wheels, I don´t see why they can´t make them available in the US
Rumors have it that the next version (Evolution) of the E46-M3 will have a V8 400HP engine either from the M5 (I dought it ... too heavy) or most probably a 4litre engine derived from the M3r used now in GT series which is banking of the first places the 911GT3´s.
Carlos

Juno

Carlos, you're starting to sound like a BMW dealer!

Seriously, though, the engine is pretty nice. When I test drove the M3, it was awesome, but the dealer didn't let me take it above 5K rpms. It still pulled with authority thanks to its Double Vanos. I can't wait to try 8K!

The M3 lightweight that should be coming out will have a 4-4.5L v8. It's only going to be sold in Europe and it's going to be very expensive. BMW is only making them to satisfy ALMS racing requirements. Most of the cars, BMW says, will be sold to people who will race them. They will be very uncomfortable road cars.

Oh, and since you mentioned the aluminum bonnet, new for 2002 is a lightweight front bumper. Every bit of extra weight saving counts!

Carlos from Spain

June, I just like when things are done right. I don´t even own a BMW car right now (I do a motorcicle). If I had to choose a car in the same category-class besides the 996 C4 (which I own) which is my first choice, it would be the M3 (with harder suspension upgrade of course and 19" wheels).
Here in Europe, the E30-M3 was substituted with a version with new engine and chasis mods four years after its presentation, called E30-M3 Evolution. With the E36-M3 (1992)the same thing happened, The 286HP was increased to 321HP in the E36-M3 Evolution of 1996 four years later (A M3 GT and M3r versions were also sold on the side). So expect four years from now an Evolution version of the E46-M3 (besides the lightweight version)with similar price and features but with more HP (But then again maybe it won´t be sold in the US )
Carlos.

ben in lj

Yal are being very kind to Mr. C32. MB is not even close yet to making a sport luxury vs. a luxury sport. The driver feedback in ANY production MB (AMG included) is totally absent. They're ALL boats - still! That said, once they learn how to make a car that handles and communicates with the driver, I'd very seriously look at them given their power plants and service departments are so awesome. It really is a shame cause I'd love to get what I want out of the 03 SL55 as a TT cab surrogate (since Porsche refuses to make one). But, that car won't be ANYTHING like a BMW or Porsche when it comes to handling.

The AMG MBs are great cars for novices or those who don't drive their cars anywhere near the limit. For those that do however, they are DANGEROUS in that they communicate so little as to what is going on and offer so poor a response to driver imput at the edge, that that imput is often useless.

Carlos from Spain

You read my mind, Ben In Lj. Just didn´t want´t to be so bold and clear. Light steering with no feedback, soft chasis, plush suspensions, automatic transmission, and lifeless engines all wrapped up in an overweight and overpriced package ...not what I look for in a car, but thats a matter of personal preferences. They are great in the confort-luxury class just don´t try to pretend its a sportcar! although it may fool some inocent people at that. Here is an example of similar cars, different caracter:
Q: Whats the difference between a Bentley and a Rolls Royce? (they are made almost by the same people and in the same place, similar looks, chasis and engines, though just now were split up; bought by different companies and seperated.)

A: One is made for driving it and the other to be driven in the back seat. I.e. the Bentley is a bit sportier and fun to drive and the Rolls a bit more confortable and intended for the rear seat passenger.
What is the better car? Depends on your preferences, just don´t pretend one to be the other.

Carlos.

C32

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Carlos from Spain

C32,
All you mention in all the posts is the Autocar "review". You should do some thinking by yourself and not let "a" magazine article be your bible and tell what to believe.
I admit though that the E46 series has lighter steering (thats the first thing I noticed on the E46 series) than the E36 series but still better than MB´s.
Statements such a "C32 rocks!" lack arguments, like the ones I listed earlier (notice I compared the M3 vs. the C32 because the 911 is already a different world in performance) and may lead me to believe that you are in denial because you may be repenting your decision on the C32 because you were looking for a sportcar(to substitute a 996 )and not a powerful luxury sedan which is what the C32 actually is.
You may still have time to switch your deposit for an M3

Carlos from Spain

ben in lj

Just wondering, what's "C32" man doing trying to pump that silly automatic, luxo cruiser here on the "996 Forum"?

Carlos from Spain

Yes, trying to push an AMG as a sportcar in a "Porsche" forum is askig for it, try the oldsmobile forum next , maybe they swallow it. We just find it amusing to put it mildly

Carlos.