Palting

I've been reading threads regarding after market brakes all over this forum, particularly here at the 996 forum. I have to admit I am somewhat confused.

I have the red turbo brakes on the 2002 C4S, a standard item. I have bled and replaced the brake fluid with the high temp "Gold", same as ATE Super Blue but not blue. Stock street P-Zeros. I get up to 120-130 mph at the end of the straights, then SQUEEEEEEEZE the hell out of those brakes to almost lock-up. I have to believe I am consistently threshold braking. Never experienced the dreaded fade. Yet I read about fade, need for Pagids, what-not.

Is it because of my street tires that start locking up before the pads get beyond their capabilities, therefore will not fade? Are the posters on this board who experience fade with their 996's using track tires? Are the turbo-brakes on the C4S just that much better? Once I buy track tires, Pagids are a necessity? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

John Murray

OK, after two full days of DE, back to back, I experienced fade. The fluid was to blame. I replaced with ATE Blue, no more fade. After 47K miles on car, it needs pads. I decided to check out other options besides Porsche replacement pads. After about 7K miles on P-Zeros and 600+ track miles the rears will need replacing soon. This is all expected when tracking a car.


Good Luck!

996FLT6

I for one never experienced any fade with stock pads but switched to Pagid S/ATE Blue/steel lines as my experience grows on the track because someday need that extra performance to do well on the track. Regards. Mike

GrantG

Palting - having a C4S means you have Turbo brakes, but about 200 lbs less weight - so you're in pretty good shape! However, getting Pagids and track tires will give you a whole new appreciation for the brakes (even if you're not fading now, the racing pads give a firmer pedal when really hot). Also, is your track really tough on brakes - this varies greatly! My track is murder on brakes and makes differences in pads and braided lines much more apparent...

STRSHP

Seems that the hot brake pad are the Hawks. A lot who come up to pit out have confessed to going to that pad. Also, at my last DE, my instructor made it very clear that I was getting all that I could in a couple of corners at VIR with my street tires. He suggested the R1's the new Michelin's or the Toyo's.

Good tracking.

Greg Fishman

Palting,
Your brakes should be perfect since you car is so new. Your pads should be close to new so that helps transfer heat away from the fluid.
Once you switch to R compounds you may need to switch to a better pad. You will be carrying more speed out of turns and will need to slow from a higher speed which will generate more heat.

Any more DE's the rest of the year?

Ed Newman

Palting, most likely with street tires and TT brakes you will be able to lock the brakes. Street tires simply do not have the grip to beat the TT brakes. Changing to pagids will be like night and day if you are really pushing the car hard. The brakes will feel much crisper with almost no fade. Since your brakes are way more powerful than your tires, you are probably not working them hard enough to start generating fade. R compounds will bring on the fade MUCH quicker. Since you already changed fluid, you are good there. Are you experiencing the ABS coming on at every braking zone? A few other drivers and myself have complained about ABS coming on very early in the 02/03 cars.

Palting

Thanks for the input, all. Clarified some and confirmed some impressions I had.

Mike, good luck on your quest to perfect driving!! I'm still a novice, but steadily progressing as quickly as pocket money and the wifey will allow .

Greg, I'm going to Beaver Run, then Mid-Ohio again this month. Maybe I'll see you there.

Ed, the ABS comes on pretty early at Nelsons, and pretty much at every brake zone . The really irritating thing is that when ABS kicks in, PSM ain't far behind. I believe it's due to the bumpy and irregular track more than it is the sensitivity. At Mid-Ohio, I can actually feel the tires start to give way just before ABS comes on. Might be a different matter with track tires.

Hawks, Pagids, steel lines, crisp and firm feel, Michelins, Toyos..... I can't wait to experience what you are all talking about. Right now, I plan to change things with more track oriented stuff as they wear out. Pretty much on schedule as John has pointed out. I will continue to ask for your expert and experienced opinions. Thanks again. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Ed Newman

The only thing I have to compare to is my Boxster... even with smaller brakes, it could still lock the tires a little with the Pagid pads. Typically it was on the initial transfer. The tires would lock for a second and then once the weight got to the front, return to normal and brake down. The 996 seems to do the same thing, but before the tire actually locks it goes into the ABS. Resulting in longer braking distances. I am going to have the fluid changed and get them bled and probably put Pagid pads on before the next DE (Spring next year) and we'll see how it feels then. As for you, all I can say is go for the tires... it makes such a difference, escpecially if you are smooth and doing well on street tires. The additional speed through the corners and better braking make a world of differemce.

ZBlue996Kam

Ed:

How about Pocono in a few weeks? Going? I am.

Kam

Palting

Carnewal quoted over US$1750 for a full set of C4S P-Corsa tires . They ARE available. Add the hit or miss import duty tax, and that price just made me want to practice a bit more with street ires . Just called Tire Rack. No track tires in C4S rear size, I'm unwilling to play with sizes at this early point. Ended up ordering a full set of P-zeros for the turbo wheels sitting in the garage. Good news is that the Corsas should be available at Tire Rack in the spring, <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> , hopefully at better prices. If I hear you guys right, next step is track pads and steel brake lines. Of course, I'll have to throw in the cost of a dozen roses and a candle-lit dinner for the wife to OK to deal .

Ed Newman

I unfortunately have a wedding the weekend of Pocono so I cannot attend :-(

There are some posts about a tire test by a german car mag on the GT3. They rated the Michelin Cup the best, over the Corsa and they are abotu $1200/set. Why don't you just go for the 285's in the rear, not like its such a huge difference.

Palting

Yup, saw that post, and inquired about prices as well. Still hesitant about changing sizes, though. There's more rim edge exposure, question of PSM misreading, and I won't be too sure yet if any handling changes that occur are because of the tire size diff or are because I'm not consistent enough yet. And as I understand it, a large portion of the early learning curve to fast driving has to do with the mind set rather than equipment. And the Michelins didn't win by much. Anyway, too late now. But I will definitely get track tires in the spring. Thanks for the advice. Have fun at the wedding!!