The Great Oil Debate
09-19-2012, 11:36 AM
#46
Three Wheelin'
I use the Mobil 1 5w-40 and also send out to Blackstone labs.
This combo has worked for me since I own the car 2.5 years and 30k miles so I am sticking to it.
This combo has worked for me since I own the car 2.5 years and 30k miles so I am sticking to it.
09-23-2012, 04:10 PM
#47
M1 0w-40 is a very thin 40, that shears quickly into a 30 weight. I have it in my APR VW 2.0 TSI, which is fine with thin oils, but in no way should people believe it's the ~ultimate~ protection. In winter, sure, it's a fine choice.
Neither do I like M1 15w-50. My mechanic says most every blown engine he sees off the track has a jug of Red Top in the rear.
Rotella 5w-40 should be a very easy choice to make for every driver. I like to experiment a bit more, with lighter oils as Dr.Hass encourages. However, with the IMS issues, I do believe this is one case where it would be better to err on the side of heavier oil.
In my world, I do not mind paying full price for SynPower 5w-40 (more and more places carry it now). Mobil 1 High Miles is a great value and maybe the best product available. I plan on getting it into my car asap to soothe the seals a bit. Feel free to mix and match viscs.
Don't rule out dino oils, esp HiMi ones like MaxLife and GTX HM. If you are doing 5k changes, with 8+q capacity, dino oil is more than sufficient. You can leave the old filter in place, esp if you use the same type oil 2x. Synthetic recommendation is for extended drains. Dino oil has actually come a long way since the lame SG/SH recommended in my 2002 manual. I have no problems with dino oil. When I got my car at 42k, I immediately installed some SAE 30 HD oil I had already. Draining it in a few weeks, I have some Havoline 10w-40 for it until deep winter. Havoline has a good deal of moly. Pennzoil makes a good 10w-40 too.
Neither do I like M1 15w-50. My mechanic says most every blown engine he sees off the track has a jug of Red Top in the rear.
Rotella 5w-40 should be a very easy choice to make for every driver. I like to experiment a bit more, with lighter oils as Dr.Hass encourages. However, with the IMS issues, I do believe this is one case where it would be better to err on the side of heavier oil.
In my world, I do not mind paying full price for SynPower 5w-40 (more and more places carry it now). Mobil 1 High Miles is a great value and maybe the best product available. I plan on getting it into my car asap to soothe the seals a bit. Feel free to mix and match viscs.
Don't rule out dino oils, esp HiMi ones like MaxLife and GTX HM. If you are doing 5k changes, with 8+q capacity, dino oil is more than sufficient. You can leave the old filter in place, esp if you use the same type oil 2x. Synthetic recommendation is for extended drains. Dino oil has actually come a long way since the lame SG/SH recommended in my 2002 manual. I have no problems with dino oil. When I got my car at 42k, I immediately installed some SAE 30 HD oil I had already. Draining it in a few weeks, I have some Havoline 10w-40 for it until deep winter. Havoline has a good deal of moly. Pennzoil makes a good 10w-40 too.
09-23-2012, 05:06 PM
#48
Three Wheelin'
+1 against the M1 products...
How is Castrol 5W50 for combined street / track use? how is synpower 5W40 better ?
I wouldn't use dyno oils on the track....
How is Castrol 5W50 for combined street / track use? how is synpower 5W40 better ?
I wouldn't use dyno oils on the track....
09-23-2012, 05:35 PM
#49
Race Director
M1 0w-40 is a very thin 40, that shears quickly into a 30 weight. I have it in my APR VW 2.0 TSI, which is fine with thin oils, but in no way should people believe it's the ~ultimate~ protection. In winter, sure, it's a fine choice.
Neither do I like M1 15w-50. My mechanic says most every blown engine he sees off the track has a jug of Red Top in the rear.
Rotella 5w-40 should be a very easy choice to make for every driver. I like to experiment a bit more, with lighter oils as Dr.Hass encourages. However, with the IMS issues, I do believe this is one case where it would be better to err on the side of heavier oil.
In my world, I do not mind paying full price for SynPower 5w-40 (more and more places carry it now). Mobil 1 High Miles is a great value and maybe the best product available. I plan on getting it into my car asap to soothe the seals a bit. Feel free to mix and match viscs.
Don't rule out dino oils, esp HiMi ones like MaxLife and GTX HM. If you are doing 5k changes, with 8+q capacity, dino oil is more than sufficient. You can leave the old filter in place, esp if you use the same type oil 2x. Synthetic recommendation is for extended drains. Dino oil has actually come a long way since the lame SG/SH recommended in my 2002 manual. I have no problems with dino oil. When I got my car at 42k, I immediately installed some SAE 30 HD oil I had already. Draining it in a few weeks, I have some Havoline 10w-40 for it until deep winter. Havoline has a good deal of moly. Pennzoil makes a good 10w-40 too.
Neither do I like M1 15w-50. My mechanic says most every blown engine he sees off the track has a jug of Red Top in the rear.
Rotella 5w-40 should be a very easy choice to make for every driver. I like to experiment a bit more, with lighter oils as Dr.Hass encourages. However, with the IMS issues, I do believe this is one case where it would be better to err on the side of heavier oil.
In my world, I do not mind paying full price for SynPower 5w-40 (more and more places carry it now). Mobil 1 High Miles is a great value and maybe the best product available. I plan on getting it into my car asap to soothe the seals a bit. Feel free to mix and match viscs.
Don't rule out dino oils, esp HiMi ones like MaxLife and GTX HM. If you are doing 5k changes, with 8+q capacity, dino oil is more than sufficient. You can leave the old filter in place, esp if you use the same type oil 2x. Synthetic recommendation is for extended drains. Dino oil has actually come a long way since the lame SG/SH recommended in my 2002 manual. I have no problems with dino oil. When I got my car at 42k, I immediately installed some SAE 30 HD oil I had already. Draining it in a few weeks, I have some Havoline 10w-40 for it until deep winter. Havoline has a good deal of moly. Pennzoil makes a good 10w-40 too.
Based on a quick scan of the MSDS for this oil and say M-1 0w-40 oil I'd say only if every (Porsche) driver harbors a secret death wish for his Porsche engine.
Rotella 5w-40 oil is a mineral based oil that has a lower boiling point (536F) vs. that of M-1 0w-40 oil (>600F). and in other ways doesn't compare favorably with a synthetic oil like M-1.
Get the MSDS for both oils and compare. For Rotella oil call 877 276 7285; for Mobil oil call 713 613 3661.
(I happen to have a digital copy of each around albeit both a few years old now and didn't try these numbers to order more up to date MSDS's. In the case of Rotella oil I see no reason to as long as an oil is not on the approved list of oils for my cars I frankly have no interest in knowing why it is inadequate and in the case of an approved oil I see no reason to duplicate the analysis of Porsche.)
Just to show you I'm not biased against Shell oil products, Shell does appear to make several oils that are on the approved oil list: Helix Ultra 5w-40, and Helix Ultra Extra Polar 0w-40 and Helix Ultra C 0w-40, so if one is set on using a Shell oil he has 3 choices recognized by Porsche as suitable for use in these engines.
Were I wanting to switch from using Mobil 1 5w-50 oil to another oil I would not hesitate to consider any of the approved Shell oils.
Sincerely,
Macster.
09-23-2012, 05:37 PM
#50
I don't select oils by the PDS, there's next to zero info on them. Flashpoint, or "boiling point" as you call it doesn't ~make~ a good oil.
Rotella has a vast following with other, less ****, Euro car forums. It's far from a "mineral oil" (hello 1994), Shell uses their exclusive XHVI base oil in all their synthetic products. Feel free to chase the mfg specs, but you'll just get the same kind of product, but watered down for API SM spec.
Rotella could easy exceed ACEA A3, but Euro cars are simply not their target market. Remember too, many of our oils are N/A in the Euro market, therefore they are never considered by the (marketing) engineers over there. Seeking VW approval is a $500,000 licence for 3 years, that doesn't fit into the business model for many products here. Euro oil are about 2% of the market here (hello!), synth oil itself is only around 10%. Lack of VW spec also makes for a better price, and in many cases, like I explained, a BETTER product. Look over some approved PDS and let us know which oils feature the newest additives. Mfg specs call for mpg and cold-cranking stipulations, superfluous for most of us.
I can see the dino exclusion for track use, so I won't get into that very far. However, 15w-40 HD will not fail anyone on the track, HT/HS of 4.1cP, not far from virgin 5w-50...I suppose. One excellent example would be the Conoco 15w-40 w/titanium. Trust me gentlemen, this would be my FIRST choice if I was tracking. The high valvetrain loads in our engine is exactly what diesel oils are developed for.
http://www.conocophillipslubricants...._titanium.aspx
Kendall 10w-40/GT-1 is about $5/q, or less.
http://www.conocophillipslubricants....0TDS%20Web.pdf
My BOSCH mechanic is a 30+ year Master Porsche mechanic. He uses Syntec 5w-50 by the drum. He also uses VR-1, which I should have mentioned. I have a buttload of VR1 Racing Synth, that I'll use in time, again mixing viscs, 20w-50 and 10w-30.
One issue with Syntec 5w-50 is that it shears to a 40 weight. You may as well start w/a 5w-40. It may be tough on mpg (fwiw) and isn't very good in cold. Not all 5w- grades are the same in cold, many make this mistake. CERTAINLY a 5w-20 or 30 is thinner in cold. Pop some in the freezer next to a 5w-40 and let me know. I avoid 5w-40 in the winter, here's why...
That thick isn't great for turbo apps, that's why 0w- oils were developed. I shoot for <5000cSt starting visc, 10,000cSt being the absolute floor. 5w-40 should be fine for non-turbos above 0f. Short trip driving, esp in winter, you are chugging around with extremely thick oil in there.
Another thing I like about HD diesel oils it that the specs are constantly upgraded. An ancient VW 502 oil like Syntec 5w-40, the formula gets locked-in to meet spec, no room for improvement. New additives include Boron, Antimony and now Titanium, like in the Conoco oils, Kendall for example. 30 weight Edge has it now too. It's for real, and gets worked into the metal. Google it. If you want a 50 weight, get 20w-50.
fwiw, D.H. is a bit of a sycophant with the Mobil spec oil. He's "in" with the "engineers" and won't contradict or question any aspect of product development and merketing. Take it for what it's worth. I use every brand if the price and application suits me.
ANY A3 oil is ideal. I want to add here, the new low-saps VW 504/507 are not suitable for USA petrol apps. The sulphur and alcohol in our fuels kills what little TBN it has. Older high additive oils, or new HD oils work best. M1 HM for example has crazy high additive levels, and an older API SL cert, allowing high add levels. I'm going to wrap it up now, but would be happy to share what I can.
Valvoline simply makes excellent products, esp the 5w-40 and 20w-50, which actually has some Gruppe IV PAO in it.
Rotella has a vast following with other, less ****, Euro car forums. It's far from a "mineral oil" (hello 1994), Shell uses their exclusive XHVI base oil in all their synthetic products. Feel free to chase the mfg specs, but you'll just get the same kind of product, but watered down for API SM spec.
Rotella could easy exceed ACEA A3, but Euro cars are simply not their target market. Remember too, many of our oils are N/A in the Euro market, therefore they are never considered by the (marketing) engineers over there. Seeking VW approval is a $500,000 licence for 3 years, that doesn't fit into the business model for many products here. Euro oil are about 2% of the market here (hello!), synth oil itself is only around 10%. Lack of VW spec also makes for a better price, and in many cases, like I explained, a BETTER product. Look over some approved PDS and let us know which oils feature the newest additives. Mfg specs call for mpg and cold-cranking stipulations, superfluous for most of us.
I can see the dino exclusion for track use, so I won't get into that very far. However, 15w-40 HD will not fail anyone on the track, HT/HS of 4.1cP, not far from virgin 5w-50...I suppose. One excellent example would be the Conoco 15w-40 w/titanium. Trust me gentlemen, this would be my FIRST choice if I was tracking. The high valvetrain loads in our engine is exactly what diesel oils are developed for.
http://www.conocophillipslubricants...._titanium.aspx
Kendall 10w-40/GT-1 is about $5/q, or less.
http://www.conocophillipslubricants....0TDS%20Web.pdf
My BOSCH mechanic is a 30+ year Master Porsche mechanic. He uses Syntec 5w-50 by the drum. He also uses VR-1, which I should have mentioned. I have a buttload of VR1 Racing Synth, that I'll use in time, again mixing viscs, 20w-50 and 10w-30.
One issue with Syntec 5w-50 is that it shears to a 40 weight. You may as well start w/a 5w-40. It may be tough on mpg (fwiw) and isn't very good in cold. Not all 5w- grades are the same in cold, many make this mistake. CERTAINLY a 5w-20 or 30 is thinner in cold. Pop some in the freezer next to a 5w-40 and let me know. I avoid 5w-40 in the winter, here's why...
That thick isn't great for turbo apps, that's why 0w- oils were developed. I shoot for <5000cSt starting visc, 10,000cSt being the absolute floor. 5w-40 should be fine for non-turbos above 0f. Short trip driving, esp in winter, you are chugging around with extremely thick oil in there.
Another thing I like about HD diesel oils it that the specs are constantly upgraded. An ancient VW 502 oil like Syntec 5w-40, the formula gets locked-in to meet spec, no room for improvement. New additives include Boron, Antimony and now Titanium, like in the Conoco oils, Kendall for example. 30 weight Edge has it now too. It's for real, and gets worked into the metal. Google it. If you want a 50 weight, get 20w-50.
fwiw, D.H. is a bit of a sycophant with the Mobil spec oil. He's "in" with the "engineers" and won't contradict or question any aspect of product development and merketing. Take it for what it's worth. I use every brand if the price and application suits me.
ANY A3 oil is ideal. I want to add here, the new low-saps VW 504/507 are not suitable for USA petrol apps. The sulphur and alcohol in our fuels kills what little TBN it has. Older high additive oils, or new HD oils work best. M1 HM for example has crazy high additive levels, and an older API SL cert, allowing high add levels. I'm going to wrap it up now, but would be happy to share what I can.
Valvoline simply makes excellent products, esp the 5w-40 and 20w-50, which actually has some Gruppe IV PAO in it.
Last edited by Audi Junkie; 09-23-2012 at 06:15 PM.
