03 C4S or 05 Carerra ?
02-13-2006, 04:19 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
I was driving to work today in my 996 C2 Cab and a silver C4S like the one in Palting's footer was right next to me. I looked at it with envy, as I think it's an AMAZING looking car and pictures (while beautiful) can't do it justice. I don't think you can go wrong with this decision.
02-13-2006, 06:21 PM
#17
The C4S was the good looking 996 for the following main reasons:
1) Bigger hips (sadly missing on the standard 996)
2) Front bumper/spoiler looked better
3) Rear red reflector
4) Standard 18 inch wheels
I'll readilly agree that those things all added up served to make the C4S a much more attractive ride to look at than the standard 996, which was a little frumpy by comparison.
Those details were well addressed in the 997 though. It already has sexy hips, a great looking front spoiler, and 18's. The rear red reflector is, well, a sad loss.
I just can't believe all these status conscious comments about having an "entry level 911" versus a "top model". The top model 911 was the Turbo, and the C4S was a dressed up 911 Turbo fake. The 'S' used to mean more power, but Porsche figured (probably with the 993, just before it was discontinued and they had to make the last year's models attractive) that if you cosmetically alter a standard 911 to resemble a Turbo and slap an S badge on it and some red brake calipers, look out. Compared to it's C2 counterpart, the C4S was heavier, slower, had less steering feel, more aerodynamic drag, and noticably irritating understeer. The understeer was apparent to me off the track, just powering out of a curve or turnpike. I also don't believe that it was faster around the 'ring on warm dry pavement. If it was, then the GT2 and GT3 would be AWD too.
But this confirms why the Tiptronic C4S Cab was the best selling 911 in America.
I know I'm gonna rustle some feathers with these comments, but I'm just calling it like I see it.
-B
1) Bigger hips (sadly missing on the standard 996)
2) Front bumper/spoiler looked better
3) Rear red reflector
4) Standard 18 inch wheels
I'll readilly agree that those things all added up served to make the C4S a much more attractive ride to look at than the standard 996, which was a little frumpy by comparison.
Those details were well addressed in the 997 though. It already has sexy hips, a great looking front spoiler, and 18's. The rear red reflector is, well, a sad loss.
I just can't believe all these status conscious comments about having an "entry level 911" versus a "top model". The top model 911 was the Turbo, and the C4S was a dressed up 911 Turbo fake. The 'S' used to mean more power, but Porsche figured (probably with the 993, just before it was discontinued and they had to make the last year's models attractive) that if you cosmetically alter a standard 911 to resemble a Turbo and slap an S badge on it and some red brake calipers, look out. Compared to it's C2 counterpart, the C4S was heavier, slower, had less steering feel, more aerodynamic drag, and noticably irritating understeer. The understeer was apparent to me off the track, just powering out of a curve or turnpike. I also don't believe that it was faster around the 'ring on warm dry pavement. If it was, then the GT2 and GT3 would be AWD too.
But this confirms why the Tiptronic C4S Cab was the best selling 911 in America.
I know I'm gonna rustle some feathers with these comments, but I'm just calling it like I see it.
-B
02-13-2006, 06:38 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Bullet
The C4S was the good looking 996 for the following main reasons:
1) Bigger hips (sadly missing on the standard 996)
2) Front bumper/spoiler looked better
3) Rear red reflector
4) Standard 18 inch wheels
I'll readilly agree that those things all added up served to make the C4S a much more attractive ride to look at than the standard 996, which was a little frumpy by comparison.
Those details were well addressed in the 997 though. It already has sexy hips, a great looking front spoiler, and 18's. The rear red reflector is, well, a sad loss.
I just can't believe all these status conscious comments about having an "entry level 911" versus a "top model". The top model 911 was the Turbo, and the C4S was a dressed up 911 Turbo fake. The 'S' used to mean more power, but Porsche figured (probably with the 993, just before it was discontinued and they had to make the last year's models attractive) that if you cosmetically alter a standard 911 to resemble a Turbo and slap an S badge on it and some red brake calipers, look out. Compared to it's C2 counterpart, the C4S was heavier, slower, had less steering feel, more aerodynamic drag, and noticably irritating understeer. The understeer was apparent to me off the track, just powering out of a curve or turnpike. I also don't believe that it was faster around the 'ring on warm dry pavement. If it was, then the GT2 and GT3 would be AWD too.
But this confirms why the Tiptronic C4S Cab was the best selling 911 in America.
I know I'm gonna rustle some feathers with these comments, but I'm just calling it like I see it.
-B
1) Bigger hips (sadly missing on the standard 996)
2) Front bumper/spoiler looked better
3) Rear red reflector
4) Standard 18 inch wheels
I'll readilly agree that those things all added up served to make the C4S a much more attractive ride to look at than the standard 996, which was a little frumpy by comparison.
Those details were well addressed in the 997 though. It already has sexy hips, a great looking front spoiler, and 18's. The rear red reflector is, well, a sad loss.
I just can't believe all these status conscious comments about having an "entry level 911" versus a "top model". The top model 911 was the Turbo, and the C4S was a dressed up 911 Turbo fake. The 'S' used to mean more power, but Porsche figured (probably with the 993, just before it was discontinued and they had to make the last year's models attractive) that if you cosmetically alter a standard 911 to resemble a Turbo and slap an S badge on it and some red brake calipers, look out. Compared to it's C2 counterpart, the C4S was heavier, slower, had less steering feel, more aerodynamic drag, and noticably irritating understeer. The understeer was apparent to me off the track, just powering out of a curve or turnpike. I also don't believe that it was faster around the 'ring on warm dry pavement. If it was, then the GT2 and GT3 would be AWD too.
But this confirms why the Tiptronic C4S Cab was the best selling 911 in America.
I know I'm gonna rustle some feathers with these comments, but I'm just calling it like I see it.
-B
02-13-2006, 07:01 PM
#19
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I "think" i like the 997 front better (I won't really know unless I own one). But I don't like the rear end of the 997 (the cut lines look artificial - almost Audi TT like). I like the 996 front end and like the rear end esp. with the rear reflector on the C4S.
I like the natural look of the 996 interior. Not a fan of the squared off look the 997 interior has. Somehow, the 996 looks more modern to me.
I'm sure everyone will agree however that the 997 performs better, moreso, if you are talking about the 3.8L S cars.
So, getting the one you really like depends on your taste, needs and budget as well as how you prioritize them. As for me, I always wanted the 996 C4S so it wasn't a hard decision for me. At this point, the only other car I would consider would be a 996TT but even then I've become so attached to my C4S that I don't know how I could part with it. Even the curious george in me hasn't had the urge to drive a 997. However, I will say that the 997TT looks very nice and very tempting!!!
I like the natural look of the 996 interior. Not a fan of the squared off look the 997 interior has. Somehow, the 996 looks more modern to me.
I'm sure everyone will agree however that the 997 performs better, moreso, if you are talking about the 3.8L S cars.
So, getting the one you really like depends on your taste, needs and budget as well as how you prioritize them. As for me, I always wanted the 996 C4S so it wasn't a hard decision for me. At this point, the only other car I would consider would be a 996TT but even then I've become so attached to my C4S that I don't know how I could part with it. Even the curious george in me hasn't had the urge to drive a 997. However, I will say that the 997TT looks very nice and very tempting!!!
02-13-2006, 07:57 PM
#20
Nordschleife Master
Just to clarify. The "S" logo for the 997/987 edition means more power, same suspension and brakes. The "S" logo for the 996/986 edition means sport suspension and sport brakes, along with cosmetics like all leather interior, wider track, with the same HP. Thus, the C4S is not just a gussied up C4/C2, but actually has better suspension and brakes, and is a performance improvement on the C2 996, as proven by faster times at the 'Ring.
That actually was initially confusing for me when I was still shopping for the 987. I was quite disappointed when I found out that the only performance difference between the 987 base and the 987 S was HP. After all, the Porsche is supposed to be the "King of the Twisties", and not simply an HP monster, right? I expected the sport suspension to be standard on the 987S. BUT, there was NO dedicated sport suspension, and I had to get the PASM. I don't know if it's the same for the 997. Is the "S" simply a few HP more with no changes in brakes or suspension over the base C2?
If you are looking at a base C2 997, get the C4S instead. If you are looking at a 997S with sport suspension..............I think the C4S STILL stands out from the crowd more
.
That actually was initially confusing for me when I was still shopping for the 987. I was quite disappointed when I found out that the only performance difference between the 987 base and the 987 S was HP. After all, the Porsche is supposed to be the "King of the Twisties", and not simply an HP monster, right? I expected the sport suspension to be standard on the 987S. BUT, there was NO dedicated sport suspension, and I had to get the PASM. I don't know if it's the same for the 997. Is the "S" simply a few HP more with no changes in brakes or suspension over the base C2?
If you are looking at a base C2 997, get the C4S instead. If you are looking at a 997S with sport suspension..............I think the C4S STILL stands out from the crowd more
.
02-13-2006, 08:52 PM
#21
Drifting
Thread Starter
Well, it's very subjective. I moved from a Boxster S to the 911 and really appreciated the difference. When I sit in a 997 standard model it seems plain to me after all the options I have on my 996. I love the look of the C4S and the one I have my eye on is Cobalt blue with 16k miles on it. so it's pretty rare and I love the color. There are several 997's in the market with <4k miles on them that I think I could buy for mid to low 60's. Anyway, I'll drive both and determine if I pop for either one or wait and buy an 997S later in the summer. Thanks everyone for your honest comments, I'm glad I'm not the only one with a car virus.....
02-13-2006, 11:54 PM
#22
This is all wrong wrong wrong. The C4S was never faster than the C2 around the 'ring in the 996 series. Ever. Period.
I have heard that the 997C4S is faster than the 997C2S, but I still don't believe it.
Nevertheless, 'ring times by a professional driver are one thing, what the rest of us can enjoy is another. If you drive both cars, you will notice the following, even if you aren't a professional race car driver:
(1) the steering on a C4S feels heavier and more "secure" for lack of a better word. Most of us are used to driving cars that have the engine close to if not on top of the front axle. That weight creates a certain feel to the steering that we are all familiar with, and we all like what is familiar. A C4S has more of that feeling, which is attractive to many people, but the fact is that the lighter feel of the C2 is a 911 signature that takes getting used to and is actually more direct and communicative.
(2) I described it before, so I won't go into it again, but you will notice more pronounced understeer. It was a well appreciated problem with the C4 and C4S, such that PAG specifically tried hard to remove it from the 997C4/S. Initial reports are promising, though I don't know how they did it with those FAT rear tires - so I remain skeptical.
(3) Under reduced traction, the more even distribution of torque combined with the more familiar and "secure" steering feel will make the C4S feel considerably safer, predictable. On snow, the difference is incredible (snow tires mandatory).
The C4S looks great - no debate, and those improved looks amply justify it's existence, but Turbo brakes and a sports suspension do not, IMO, justify the 'S' badge. The Turbo brakes are overkill anyways - the major factor limiting breaking on a C2 is frictional coefficient on tires. A clever way for Porsche to get us to fork over more money.
Palting - I'm a little confused by your post since it mentions the 987 and then the 997. In the 997 series, the 'S' badge gets PASM standard (considered to be a suspension upgrade by Porsche, also supported by PASM standard on the 997 GT3), 30 more hp, more torque, Turbo brakes, etc.
Anyways, I loved the 996C4S because it looked gorgeous, but part of me was disappointed with Porsche for what I perceived as manipulative marketing. I am pleased with the 997 since it corrects many of the styling faults of the 996, without forcing us to deal with AWD, which I consider to be a less sporty set up, and certainly not one that is 'faster at the 'ring'.
-B
I have heard that the 997C4S is faster than the 997C2S, but I still don't believe it.
Nevertheless, 'ring times by a professional driver are one thing, what the rest of us can enjoy is another. If you drive both cars, you will notice the following, even if you aren't a professional race car driver:
(1) the steering on a C4S feels heavier and more "secure" for lack of a better word. Most of us are used to driving cars that have the engine close to if not on top of the front axle. That weight creates a certain feel to the steering that we are all familiar with, and we all like what is familiar. A C4S has more of that feeling, which is attractive to many people, but the fact is that the lighter feel of the C2 is a 911 signature that takes getting used to and is actually more direct and communicative.
(2) I described it before, so I won't go into it again, but you will notice more pronounced understeer. It was a well appreciated problem with the C4 and C4S, such that PAG specifically tried hard to remove it from the 997C4/S. Initial reports are promising, though I don't know how they did it with those FAT rear tires - so I remain skeptical.
(3) Under reduced traction, the more even distribution of torque combined with the more familiar and "secure" steering feel will make the C4S feel considerably safer, predictable. On snow, the difference is incredible (snow tires mandatory).
The C4S looks great - no debate, and those improved looks amply justify it's existence, but Turbo brakes and a sports suspension do not, IMO, justify the 'S' badge. The Turbo brakes are overkill anyways - the major factor limiting breaking on a C2 is frictional coefficient on tires. A clever way for Porsche to get us to fork over more money.
Palting - I'm a little confused by your post since it mentions the 987 and then the 997. In the 997 series, the 'S' badge gets PASM standard (considered to be a suspension upgrade by Porsche, also supported by PASM standard on the 997 GT3), 30 more hp, more torque, Turbo brakes, etc.
Anyways, I loved the 996C4S because it looked gorgeous, but part of me was disappointed with Porsche for what I perceived as manipulative marketing. I am pleased with the 997 since it corrects many of the styling faults of the 996, without forcing us to deal with AWD, which I consider to be a less sporty set up, and certainly not one that is 'faster at the 'ring'.
-B
02-14-2006, 12:05 AM
#23
Burning Brakes
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I'm one of the few that prefers narrow body 996s to the C4S style.
The C4S has, to my eyes, too many busy things going on with it- spoilers, vents, air ducts, and they look big and beefy and heavy. When I see one on the road I half expect one of those guys from the Mad Max Road Warrior movie to be driving the scary thing. no offense lol - but I prefer a cleaner looking car like the old school 911's.
The base 997 is an excellent car, and more sporty than the C4S - but apparantly that isn't as important as looks to most people. Just because it is a "base" model doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered worthy.
The C4S has, to my eyes, too many busy things going on with it- spoilers, vents, air ducts, and they look big and beefy and heavy. When I see one on the road I half expect one of those guys from the Mad Max Road Warrior movie to be driving the scary thing.
no offense lol - but I prefer a cleaner looking car like the old school 911's. The base 997 is an excellent car, and more sporty than the C4S - but apparantly that isn't as important as looks to most people. Just because it is a "base" model doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered worthy.
02-14-2006, 01:49 AM
#24
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Bullet
This is all wrong wrong wrong. The C4S was never faster than the C2 around the 'ring in the 996 series. Ever. Period.
02-14-2006, 11:50 AM
#25
Drifting
Thread Starter
Bullet,
great input, I have many things to consider now. I think I'll drive the 997 again at lunch today...
great input, I have many things to consider now. I think I'll drive the 997 again at lunch today...
02-14-2006, 12:53 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by lowside67
Precisely correct. Whomever said the C4S was faster was mistaken, the reason it was slower was attributed to the heavier weight and AWD which didnt enhance the performance around the 'ring except of course in adverse weather.
Believe it, I don't really don't care. If you really want to see how fast a C4S can go, come to Watkin's Glen with me this year and see for yourself ( not responsible for soiled undies).
02-14-2006, 12:55 PM
#28
Chandler!
Rennlist Member
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Originally Posted by Bullet
This is all wrong wrong wrong. The C4S was never faster than the C2 around the 'ring in the 996 series. Ever. Period.
I remember reading awhile back that the C4S was faster than the C4, and may have been faster than the C2 around the ring, however, the C2 was faster 0-60.
Of course this is all speculation if there are no official numbers.
Rob
EDIT: Doc you beat me to it.
02-14-2006, 01:05 PM
#29
Drifting
Originally Posted by Bullet
But this confirms why the Tiptronic C4S Cab was the best selling 911 in America.
-B
-B
i agree with you on C4S, but what do u mean by "best selling 911 in america"?
no way they sold more C4S than narrow-body 996, am i missing something?
02-14-2006, 01:10 PM
#30
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by C4S Surgeon
Why don't you guys look up the 'Ring times before commenting, the C4S was 8:12, the C2 8:17 in '02 Walter R at the wheel, I believe Palting or Jeevas posted the complete 'ring times a few months back. Check it out.
Believe it, I don't really don't care. If you really want to see how fast a C4S can go, come to Watkin's Glen with me this year and see for yourself ( not responsible for soiled undies).
Believe it, I don't really don't care. If you really want to see how fast a C4S can go, come to Watkin's Glen with me this year and see for yourself ( not responsible for soiled undies).
In the real world of non-pro driving, numbers really don't prove anything except for bragging rights on boards. What is proven by this thread is that there are proponents for either car, some quite passionately. You'll have to figure out for yourself which one you personally prefer. Test drive both, and make sure you have the correct and total info on both cars, then make an informed decision. It's like a choice between two very gorgeous women. You'll probably form just as passionate an opinion. Porsche and the 911 has a tendency to do that to it's owners
.