LiveNupe

Darren,
When you asked Geico, did you specify whether or not the event was timed, aimed at education, and/or involving competition?

Calnca

Being in the insurance business, I find the topic interesting. It seems like a continuation of no one wanting to take responsibility for their own actions.

The standard personal lines auto insurance product premium in no way contemplates the increased exposure from track events. If you own a p-car and want to track it then accept that it will come out of your pocket if you ding your p-car........of course living in CA you get a little paranoid about attorneys and pi suits.......so also remember that liability would also not be covered......and if YOUR negligence (why did you spin out in front of my client, causing my client to hit you and cause him bodily injury & property damage to his car) causes third party liabilty (spectators) that will come out of your pocket.

Fraud is not the answer .......as stated by others, speciialty insurance does exist to take care of your car and damge to others

Darren

No, its not that no-one wants to take responsibility for their own actions, that misses the point entirely. The bigger issue here is that DE should be covered by insurance companies.

I've had many claims from accidents on the street, but I've never damaged my car on the track. Because it is a controlled environment I think its less likely for me to damage my car on the track than off (my car is in the body shop now actually). I also have a significant amount of structured training (hundreds of hours) that makes me a way better driver than the average person with a license.

I'm assuming because I don't have the statistics to back up my argument, and it seems like noone has them. Eventually someone will spend the time do do this, and answer the questions "1. Do DE drivers pose less of a risk on the street (how much less) and 2. Is a participant in DE more or less likely to have damage to their vehicle on the track vs. on the street." Insurance companies do this type of work all of the time, its the basis for their business.

Also, its not true that policies do not contemplate this. Many policies strictly forbid on-track activities, and the USAA policy, as someone else mentioned, specifically allows it.

Darren

Yes, I explained that it was instructor-led training done at a race track designed to teach real-world driving skills.

I think in the end this is a case of us being in the exception. If .0001% of their customers do DE its easier/cheaper to deny coverage than to think about it.

LVDell

Calnca......Instead of a lecture and sounding like a true agent outline the various events and what would be "within" the language of the standard policy.

Yes, wheel to wheel and fender to fender as you have stated "why did you spin out in front of my client, causing my client to hit you and cause him bodily injury & property damage to his car" would be one where you NEED specialty coverage. I AGREE.

But......there are several of us that only participate in Driver's Education (DE) events. This involves skid pad exercises, braking exercises, slamom exercices, car control with/without and instructor on a closed course with NO fender to fender racing, no timing, etc (see my post above). See where I am going with that? Now, come down from your soapbox for just a minute and explain your stance. Just want to make sure it is NOT a blanket statement you are offering to cover ALL events.

fast1

But......there are several of us that only participate in Driver's Education (DE) events. This involves skid pad exercises, braking exercises, slamom exercices, car control with/without and instructor on a closed course with NO fender to fender racing, no timing, etc (see my post above). See where I am going with that? Now, come down from your soapbox for just a minute and explain your stance. Just want to make sure it is NOT a blanket statement you are offering to cover ALL events.

I'm not in the Insurance business, but my expectation is that it would be prudent to determine whether or not your Insurance company covers DE events. Although as you point out that there's no racing at these events, cars are nevertheless still driven very aggressively. PDE in no way is comparable to the Drivers Education offered by most High Schools, so I believe that it would be risky to assume that it's covered. My guess would be that coverage for DE events will vary by Insurance company.

Calnca

Well the post was titled "Tracking your Porsche"......and if you are using the vehicle on a closed course.....then you should not expect your normal day in day out personal lines auto insurance to cover it......there is specialized insurance to cover both the liability and physical damage associated with the closed course/racing exposure.

Just to clarify....I'm NOT an agent, but a carrier underwriter..........back to the fraud issue......if consumers really knew how much of their insurance premiums for both HO and auto are to cover fradulant claims maybe they would think twice about seeking coverage to cover them when they take a "calculated risk" that backfires on them......and they then lie about the circumstances and then expect someone to take care of them......back to accepting responsibility for your own actions.

Darren

Do you even read? So you are saying that even if your auto insurance says they cover it, as with USAA, that you still shouldn't expect they will cover it?

Calnca

Darren, see it they will put it in writing............if their attorneys allow the u/w to put that in writing I'd be pretty surprised.

You have to understand most insurance companies think of something else when you say driver education.......they are not contemplating you learning how to power slide through the apex with PSM turned off.

The only way I'd trust State Farm (my personal lines insurer) to pay any closed course losses, would be if I had it in writing, on their letterhead, specifically stating they will pay claims due to incidents while on a closed course for either instruction or competition.

I'm just the underwriter......when we are asked a coverage question like "what if", we always refer the client to their own attorney to have them read the policy form and give their opinion......they get paid to do it.........surely there is some PI attorney on the forum who has a feel based on his litigation experience on how carriers will typically respond.

WCE

Best advise is to READ your policy and see what it says. MANY companies have updated their coverage exclusions to any incident occurring WITHIN A FACILITY DESIGNED FOR RACING. (i.e. Track!)
My company just did this and I'm now reconsidering my '06 track days!

ElTorrente

If DE events were so safe, then why are people so desperate for DE insurance? If it's so safe, then nothing is gonna ever happen- right?

C'mon folks- your either covered or your not. If you aren't, then track at your own risk, and take responsibility if something does happen.

Don't drive up my insurance rates because you tracked your car(s) without insurance. Damn folks- no need for insurance fraud.. just nut up and buy some damn insurance like responsible adults!

Darren

OMFG. Noone is advocating insurance fraud, I don't know where that started from. The amount of people doing DE and the number of insurance claims paid to DE people is INSIGNIFICANT compared to insurance fraud in general and has no effect on yours or anyone else's insurance.

Insurance is a tricky thing because you need to evaluate your own personal risk tolerance. If you can afford to buy a new car if you wreck one at the track, then you might not need to have track insurance because you assume the risk yourself.

The decision to get insurance on a wide range of things depends on your own personal financial situation and your personal risk tolerance. Everything in life is a balance.

mooty

the best way to track your car is to track one you can wad up and buy another in cash within an hour or two. dont depend on insurance (track insurance is another story).... some ins may pay, some may not. the policies are often vague. you ask for clarification you risk being cancelled. you wreck, they MAY pay and subsequently cancel your policy. i dont trust any insurance company.

i have totalled one car on track. i didn't bother calling my ins. i just parted it out and bought another.

harris

that's why I track my porsche.......!!!!

If i crash it i will buy one same day within hours so that I won't miss the track day...

(I am only jocking....)

Insurance companies in U.K. do send photographers to take photos of all cats attending track day events.....

imagine why.......


the worst case scenario then is to track your car....go back home and after h15 - 20 days have an incident in public road!!!!

they might deny refunding cause of the attendance in a track day....!!!

they want to take money from you....

of course they do not want to give them away!!!

mooty

they want to take money from you....

of course they do not want to give them away!!!
__________
you got that right.
here in sunny CA, we are not a no fault state, so even if you had some mishap on public street, and it's really not your fault, you will still be blamed for a % of the mishap. and ultimately your premium increase, sometimes small, sometimes big. we never win.