996 Engine Replacement - Part II
01-18-2006, 03:59 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by jury_ca
I dunno about that. Bad engineering and design means that a high % of cars exhibit these problems. There is no evidence to suggest that. In fact, the 911 tops most quality surveys.
If there is a manufacturing defect in a specific engine, that should manifest itself within the warranty period, and they do in fact take responsibility for this.
Most of these cars are driven extremely hard, so it's not really a huge surprise when a couple go wrong.
If there is a manufacturing defect in a specific engine, that should manifest itself within the warranty period, and they do in fact take responsibility for this.
Most of these cars are driven extremely hard, so it's not really a huge surprise when a couple go wrong.
Secondly, there are well documented cases of the most popular engine problems (liners, RMS leaks, bearing failures, intermediate shaft bearing failures) happening at low and high mileage cars and a lot of them are daily drivers driven very conservatively.
But, the real problem is the fact that Porsche do not tell an owner that, in the event of a component failure in a 996/997/Boxster engine or transmission, there is a very good chance that the complete unit will need replacing. So for most out-of-warranty engine failures, the £10k bill comes as a bit of a surprise.
If they made it clear that it costs this much to repair a cracked liner or failed bearing, more owners might extend their warranties. Warranties, of course, are a calculated risk. If an owner has all the information available,he can make an informed decision.
It's the witholding of this information that annoys me. Come clean Porsche and reveal how many M96 engine failures there have been. Prove that it's a reliable engine. Prove that these catastrophic failures are a drop in the ocean. And if an owner is sooooo unlucky to have an engine failure because of a freak one in a million component failure, why not use some of that profit you're making to keep that owner happy so he'll buy another car from you next time. Isn't it worth the odd goodwill settlement to keep your loyal fanbase happy.
Or is it actually a bigger problem than that?
01-18-2006, 04:17 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
Here is one that PCNA/PAG needs to consider. Ability to purchase CPO warranty when you buy the car new (basically an extended warranty). Mercedes does that. THey allow purchase of 1-3 years and 100K total miles on a NEW car purchase. That would get me in the door to buy new. Instead, my next P-Car will be a 1-2 yr old CPO so I get the best of both worlds.......1st year depreciation gone and extended warranty!
01-18-2006, 04:33 PM
#18
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Why not a free lifetime warranty?
Surely these cars are so well engineered and manufactured, it would cost Porsche peanuts to honour that
Seriously, though...
A lot of people buy low mileage <1 year old cars for a couple of reasons:
So they don't have to wait 9 months for a new one to be built and so that the 1st year's depreciation is avoided.
Neither of those reasons should be held against the buyer as long as the car came from an official dealer and had been serviced properly.
The warranties really should be more realistic, especially in the UK. We get ripped off left right and centre over here for most things.
What we really need is a lemon law, although that doesn't seem to help you guys with these M96 issues.
Surely these cars are so well engineered and manufactured, it would cost Porsche peanuts to honour that
Seriously, though...
A lot of people buy low mileage <1 year old cars for a couple of reasons:
So they don't have to wait 9 months for a new one to be built and so that the 1st year's depreciation is avoided.
Neither of those reasons should be held against the buyer as long as the car came from an official dealer and had been serviced properly.
The warranties really should be more realistic, especially in the UK. We get ripped off left right and centre over here for most things.
What we really need is a lemon law, although that doesn't seem to help you guys with these M96 issues.
01-18-2006, 05:04 PM
#19
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Fred R. C4S
Scouser,
Some insight regarding warranty, price differences, and gray market products.
I purchased US spec cars through US dealers for factory delivery 4 times - 3 x Porsche, 1 x BMW. In each case, the US warranty was for a longer period of time than the European warranty. These differences were due to market pressure in the US vs. that in Europe. They needed to offer a longer warranty in the US to be anywhere near competition. That was not the case in Europe.
On each Euro Delivery I was involved in, I asked the question as to who would cover the cost of repairs while I drove the car in Europe before its final shipment tot the USA. Both Porsche and BMW told me that I was covered by their World Wide Warranty which I believe was 24 months. This would appear to be the rock bottom lowest common denominator warranty.
Many folks fail to realize the prices quoted in the US are BEFORE tax, and the only tax applicable is state sales tax on the sales price of the car or the difference in price between your trade-in and the new car. In Europe, the quoted prices also include VAT. Now there's a cancer you folks ought to fight! It raises the price of goods on everything in every step of the market process were "value is added". I would guess your VAT to be 15-17%, while our sales tax is 4-7%.
Now for gray market cars. Most manufacturers will not allow one Marketing Subsidiary to sell the product as built for another Marketing Subsidiary. It countervenes the differential pricing that they have set up between areas of the world and protects the dealers franchise territory. In my business, a customer is free to purchase at any dealer in the world at local price and use the product in any other area of the world. To discourage "selling outside one's territory", we ask the selling dealer to pay the servicing dealer 5% of the sales price to cover the servicing dealer's labor for future warranty repairs. Remember, the servicing dealer made no money on the new sale to the customer. As we are selling to the dealers at different net prices around the world (low price markets pay lower dealer net prices) we reserve the right to re-invoice the selling dealer at the higher dealer net price of the servicing dealer. So he gets charged the higher dealer net price AND pays a 5% service fee. This usually discourages dealers seeking out these type of deals. Now The EU has broken down many of these barriers and prices are pretty much the same there, but not necessarily the same as in the US or the Far East.
When the MB ML series first came out, a friend of mine had a business acquaintance in Germany who just HAD TO HAVE one of these ASAP. My friend purchased the car in the US, then sold it to his German friend in Chicago and had the car shipped to Germany. It was THE FIRST ML in Germany. When MB found out what happened, they punished the US dealer (who really didn't know this was going on). The dealer will not likely offer any sort of deal to my friend in the future.
Isn't capitalism complex and great?
Cheers,
Some insight regarding warranty, price differences, and gray market products.
I purchased US spec cars through US dealers for factory delivery 4 times - 3 x Porsche, 1 x BMW. In each case, the US warranty was for a longer period of time than the European warranty. These differences were due to market pressure in the US vs. that in Europe. They needed to offer a longer warranty in the US to be anywhere near competition. That was not the case in Europe.
On each Euro Delivery I was involved in, I asked the question as to who would cover the cost of repairs while I drove the car in Europe before its final shipment tot the USA. Both Porsche and BMW told me that I was covered by their World Wide Warranty which I believe was 24 months. This would appear to be the rock bottom lowest common denominator warranty.
Many folks fail to realize the prices quoted in the US are BEFORE tax, and the only tax applicable is state sales tax on the sales price of the car or the difference in price between your trade-in and the new car. In Europe, the quoted prices also include VAT. Now there's a cancer you folks ought to fight! It raises the price of goods on everything in every step of the market process were "value is added". I would guess your VAT to be 15-17%, while our sales tax is 4-7%.
Now for gray market cars. Most manufacturers will not allow one Marketing Subsidiary to sell the product as built for another Marketing Subsidiary. It countervenes the differential pricing that they have set up between areas of the world and protects the dealers franchise territory. In my business, a customer is free to purchase at any dealer in the world at local price and use the product in any other area of the world. To discourage "selling outside one's territory", we ask the selling dealer to pay the servicing dealer 5% of the sales price to cover the servicing dealer's labor for future warranty repairs. Remember, the servicing dealer made no money on the new sale to the customer. As we are selling to the dealers at different net prices around the world (low price markets pay lower dealer net prices) we reserve the right to re-invoice the selling dealer at the higher dealer net price of the servicing dealer. So he gets charged the higher dealer net price AND pays a 5% service fee. This usually discourages dealers seeking out these type of deals. Now The EU has broken down many of these barriers and prices are pretty much the same there, but not necessarily the same as in the US or the Far East.
When the MB ML series first came out, a friend of mine had a business acquaintance in Germany who just HAD TO HAVE one of these ASAP. My friend purchased the car in the US, then sold it to his German friend in Chicago and had the car shipped to Germany. It was THE FIRST ML in Germany. When MB found out what happened, they punished the US dealer (who really didn't know this was going on). The dealer will not likely offer any sort of deal to my friend in the future.
Isn't capitalism complex and great?
Cheers,
Everyone else, I am sorry for hijacking the thread. I will dip out here now.
01-18-2006, 06:49 PM
#20
weren't you all waiting for me to chime in? :>
but anyways, to help you out with your idea of potentially buying a used one.. i took that route.. only because my first engine blew a rod through the core and they wouldn't take it back because it was unfixable (thus unresellable to the next blown engine person down the food chain) so i had a choice of $18,000 (or $25,000+ for a new engine) vs $8,000 for the used route.. i took the used route and bought an engine with 8,000 miles on it, thinking it would be relatively safe.. i realized there was no guarantee, no warranty, and took my chances.. unfortunately the cards didn't roll in my favor, and at 8,800 miles the new engine had it's cylinder fall out of the sleeve lining, but this time i did have a core
(bonus) so i sucked it up, paid the piper and had my reman with the 2 year warranty.. you can go the used route and save a few thousand, but in the end, you won't have a warranty... it depends what price that piece of mind is worth to you? is $5,000+ in savings worth 2 years of piece of mind? to some, maybe, to some others, maybe not.. i know after having another porsche engine fail at 8,800 miles with no options but to replace it, that was the end of my faith in the porsche marque and reliability.. but anyways, i'll leave it at that.. it appears you have three options
1) trade it in and get a good deal on another one (which in my opinion is just plain ridiculous.. even if you are offered a good deal, i would be so bitter about even that proposition.. service advisors shouldn't even have anything to do with sales.. what kind of dealer/company would even offer such a proposition annoys me.. something just doesn't sound right about that proposition.. and i have a feeling that dealership wouldn't be paying for the replacement engine.. they'd probably get a free one from porsche and use it for the next person that comes that needs a new engine..)
2) suck it up and pay the full amount and have 2 years of piece of mind
3) go the used route, and worry that something may go wrong and you'll be right where you were before, and potentially owe another $12,000+ in the near future..
only a choice you can make...
but anyways, to help you out with your idea of potentially buying a used one.. i took that route.. only because my first engine blew a rod through the core and they wouldn't take it back because it was unfixable (thus unresellable to the next blown engine person down the food chain) so i had a choice of $18,000 (or $25,000+ for a new engine) vs $8,000 for the used route.. i took the used route and bought an engine with 8,000 miles on it, thinking it would be relatively safe.. i realized there was no guarantee, no warranty, and took my chances.. unfortunately the cards didn't roll in my favor, and at 8,800 miles the new engine had it's cylinder fall out of the sleeve lining, but this time i did have a core
(bonus) so i sucked it up, paid the piper and had my reman with the 2 year warranty.. you can go the used route and save a few thousand, but in the end, you won't have a warranty... it depends what price that piece of mind is worth to you? is $5,000+ in savings worth 2 years of piece of mind? to some, maybe, to some others, maybe not.. i know after having another porsche engine fail at 8,800 miles with no options but to replace it, that was the end of my faith in the porsche marque and reliability.. but anyways, i'll leave it at that.. it appears you have three options1) trade it in and get a good deal on another one (which in my opinion is just plain ridiculous.. even if you are offered a good deal, i would be so bitter about even that proposition.. service advisors shouldn't even have anything to do with sales.. what kind of dealer/company would even offer such a proposition annoys me.. something just doesn't sound right about that proposition.. and i have a feeling that dealership wouldn't be paying for the replacement engine.. they'd probably get a free one from porsche and use it for the next person that comes that needs a new engine..)
2) suck it up and pay the full amount and have 2 years of piece of mind
3) go the used route, and worry that something may go wrong and you'll be right where you were before, and potentially owe another $12,000+ in the near future..
only a choice you can make...
01-18-2006, 07:00 PM
#21
Technical Guru
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by joes c4 cab
I have said from the very beginning that if Porsche would offer parts and train their techs to open the damn motors and fix them that I would not bitch. To junk a motor and spend $10K because of a blown head gasket blows my mind.
01-19-2006, 12:57 PM
#22
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I completely agree with JasonAndreas. If the dealership wanted to replace the head gasket, they could/would. But it's much easier and cost effective to replace the engine. My cousin was a tech at a non-p-car dealership before, if any internal damage is discovered, they replace the engine. They are able to bill the manufacturer for labor hours and they get the engine for free. It nearly guarantees a fix. Cheapest/easiest solution for everyone unless you don't have a warranty and then it's the cheapest/easiest for the dealership but not so good for the consumer.
There's a lot to engine building and as I've mentioned before, it's not really a dealership's niche.
There's a lot to engine building and as I've mentioned before, it's not really a dealership's niche.
