Best suspension set-up for 996
12-07-2005, 02:37 PM
#16
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I have JIC's and GT3's on the front and back. The car is totally different. On the track its great while on the steet, it can be tough. All the variability can be a little over the top as well. You have the GT3 adjustments along with the rebound/compresion adjustments and height adjustments. I have not even begun to explore all the variables. On dry pavement, its fun. You take turns at speeds very few cars would ever think of attempting. I have had a couple cars follow me, even a slow speeds, and they end up locking them up. You might want to also look at K&N suspension, as they recently released a 996 product in the US, that is used in Europe. They have the external res that many of the higher end units have and the benefit of being stainless steel.
12-07-2005, 02:58 PM
#17
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I have the X73 and am very pleased with it, it's factory, it's non adjustable, it's awsome at the track on a TT/C4S. Couldn't be happier. Some guys have had problems with coilovers(aftermarket) on TT/C4S platforms. I think for a pre '02 car, RoW 030, post '02 X73/74, very tough to top those.
12-07-2005, 03:04 PM
#18
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Vove,
Before you spend a bunch of money on suspension I would sit down with someone that can explain a 996 suspension to you. Someone like Steve would be ideal if he's available. I really think understaning the role of damping (fast compression, slow compression, rebound, etc.), spring rates, anti-sway bars, monoballs, etc. as well as alignment options is critical to understanding what your car is doing and how it will change with the different suspension options. $6500 can get you a nice suspension but it's not even close to the "best". Triple that number and you might be close. Finally, my suspension is the "triple that number" version and I can assure you that you still can't "just mash it" around corners.
Good luck,
Jim
Before you spend a bunch of money on suspension I would sit down with someone that can explain a 996 suspension to you. Someone like Steve would be ideal if he's available. I really think understaning the role of damping (fast compression, slow compression, rebound, etc.), spring rates, anti-sway bars, monoballs, etc. as well as alignment options is critical to understanding what your car is doing and how it will change with the different suspension options. $6500 can get you a nice suspension but it's not even close to the "best". Triple that number and you might be close. Finally, my suspension is the "triple that number" version and I can assure you that you still can't "just mash it" around corners.
Good luck,
Jim
12-07-2005, 03:30 PM
#19
Jim, what suspension do you have? Also why not explain some of those things right here. That way not only Vove benefits, we all can. BTW have you been to the Uptown bar in Minneapolis?
12-07-2005, 03:58 PM
#20
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Depending on the goals...
For inexpensive and basic replacement, the Bilstein HD's + TRG springs + M030 sways works great. A complete set of all these components + hardware will total to about $1450. Install labor is about 5-7 hours, and there is no further adjusting necessary or possible, post alignment of course.
It's a good alternative if the stock suspension is history (usually after 50k) and the ride height is a bit too high for your tastes.
Austin
DEVEK
For inexpensive and basic replacement, the Bilstein HD's + TRG springs + M030 sways works great. A complete set of all these components + hardware will total to about $1450. Install labor is about 5-7 hours, and there is no further adjusting necessary or possible, post alignment of course.
It's a good alternative if the stock suspension is history (usually after 50k) and the ride height is a bit too high for your tastes.
Austin
DEVEK
12-07-2005, 04:03 PM
#21
Vove,
To each his own, but I think that getting the top-o-the-line suspension solely for street use is overkill in the extreme. Why not get a system that is optimized for sporty street driving, and then spend the rest of your money on a super charger? I don't think that is necessary for street driving either, but it would probably give you more bang for your street buck. Just a thought.
TD
P.S. My P229s and GT3 sways are more than adequate for street use (and just fine for track as well). I would have to drive at illegal and "stupid" speeds on the street to reach the limit of the car. Even on the track, I reach my own personal skills limit on the before I reach the limits of the car. In other words, you would be paying for capabilities that you likely would never really use.
To each his own, but I think that getting the top-o-the-line suspension solely for street use is overkill in the extreme. Why not get a system that is optimized for sporty street driving, and then spend the rest of your money on a super charger? I don't think that is necessary for street driving either, but it would probably give you more bang for your street buck. Just a thought.
TD
P.S. My P229s and GT3 sways are more than adequate for street use (and just fine for track as well). I would have to drive at illegal and "stupid" speeds on the street to reach the limit of the car. Even on the track, I reach my own personal skills limit on the before I reach the limits of the car. In other words, you would be paying for capabilities that you likely would never really use.
12-07-2005, 04:09 PM
#22
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No holds barred, best 996 set-up?
You're looking at buying more than a few GT3 Cup and GT3RSR parts to get there. And no, $6500 will not even get you close as Jim alluded to.
The PSS9's would be fine for the street. And the Moton Clubsports are hard to beat value-wise on the track and unless you are trying to pull the last tenth out of a car on the track, you won't notice the difference between those and the triple adjustable motorsport Motons other than in your checkbook.
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You're looking at buying more than a few GT3 Cup and GT3RSR parts to get there. And no, $6500 will not even get you close as Jim alluded to.
The PSS9's would be fine for the street. And the Moton Clubsports are hard to beat value-wise on the track and unless you are trying to pull the last tenth out of a car on the track, you won't notice the difference between those and the triple adjustable motorsport Motons other than in your checkbook.
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Autometrics Motorsports Porsche 996 - Grand-Am Cup #45
'87 Porsche 944 Turbo - PCA GT3s
12-07-2005, 04:28 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by TD in DC
Vove,
To each his own, but I think that getting the top-o-the-line suspension solely for street use is overkill in the extreme. Why not get a system that is optimized for sporty street driving, and then spend the rest of your money on a super charger? I don't think that is necessary for street driving either, but it would probably give you more bang for your street buck. Just a thought.
TD
P.S. My P229s and GT3 sways are more than adequate for street use (and just fine for track as well). I would have to drive at illegal and "stupid" speeds on the street to reach the limit of the car. Even on the track, I reach my own personal skills limit on the before I reach the limits of the car. In other words, you would be paying for capabilities that you likely would never really use.
To each his own, but I think that getting the top-o-the-line suspension solely for street use is overkill in the extreme. Why not get a system that is optimized for sporty street driving, and then spend the rest of your money on a super charger? I don't think that is necessary for street driving either, but it would probably give you more bang for your street buck. Just a thought.
TD
P.S. My P229s and GT3 sways are more than adequate for street use (and just fine for track as well). I would have to drive at illegal and "stupid" speeds on the street to reach the limit of the car. Even on the track, I reach my own personal skills limit on the before I reach the limits of the car. In other words, you would be paying for capabilities that you likely would never really use.
Im leaning towards the Pss9's and GT3 sways since I dont track my car but I could buy a used JRZ setup for a little more $$$$
.JimB, thanks for the info and Im sure you dont want to give away what your suspension setup consist of since thats your little secret.
Last edited by vove; 12-07-2005 at 04:43 PM.
12-07-2005, 04:31 PM
#24
Yeah that JRZ setup with sways and links for the same price as new PSS9s and GT3 sways looks tempting.
I'd probably go that route. You can choose your spring rate too. If you decide you want something stiffer or more streetable.
I'd probably go that route. You can choose your spring rate too. If you decide you want something stiffer or more streetable.
12-07-2005, 05:04 PM
#25
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Bow,
Sure I’ve been to the Uptown. If you are ever in town I’d be glad to meet you there. We can talk suspension. That usually brings in the women.
The reason I don’t just write about it is that I understand the topic enough to adjust my own suspension and have a half way meaningful discussion but I would not pretend to be knowledgeable enough to be able to write about it in a way that wasn’t totally confusing.
If you think about what “handling” is, it’s really just maximizing the adhesion between your tires and the road. In that equation, you have the stickiness of your tires, the stickiness of the road, the size of the contact patch between the tire and the road and weight. (You also have variables such as the camber of the road surface and whether you’re cresting a hill or compressing at the bottom of a hill which effects weight) But, at the end of the day, most of what your suspension does is manage how your weight is distributed between the four contact points.
For example: Under acceleration your front lifts and your back squats shifting more weight to your back contact patches. Throw in some cornering and your weight is shifting to your outside back tire. What does this mean. Lots of traction in back, not much in front. Understeer! How do you fix it? Less rebound (lift) in front and/or less compression (squat) in back might be the answer but that’s going to change how your car reacts in a different situation. Add a couple dozen scenarios to optimize across and all the adjustability of a trick suspension and it gets pretty complicated.
No big secret in my suspension. Moton triple adjustable race dampers. ERP monoballs and lots of RSR stuff including the really trick adjustable spring rate springs. As Brian knows, it all adds up pretty fast.
Jim
Sure I’ve been to the Uptown. If you are ever in town I’d be glad to meet you there. We can talk suspension. That usually brings in the women.
The reason I don’t just write about it is that I understand the topic enough to adjust my own suspension and have a half way meaningful discussion but I would not pretend to be knowledgeable enough to be able to write about it in a way that wasn’t totally confusing.
If you think about what “handling” is, it’s really just maximizing the adhesion between your tires and the road. In that equation, you have the stickiness of your tires, the stickiness of the road, the size of the contact patch between the tire and the road and weight. (You also have variables such as the camber of the road surface and whether you’re cresting a hill or compressing at the bottom of a hill which effects weight) But, at the end of the day, most of what your suspension does is manage how your weight is distributed between the four contact points.
For example: Under acceleration your front lifts and your back squats shifting more weight to your back contact patches. Throw in some cornering and your weight is shifting to your outside back tire. What does this mean. Lots of traction in back, not much in front. Understeer! How do you fix it? Less rebound (lift) in front and/or less compression (squat) in back might be the answer but that’s going to change how your car reacts in a different situation. Add a couple dozen scenarios to optimize across and all the adjustability of a trick suspension and it gets pretty complicated.
No big secret in my suspension. Moton triple adjustable race dampers. ERP monoballs and lots of RSR stuff including the really trick adjustable spring rate springs. As Brian knows, it all adds up pretty fast.
Jim
12-08-2005, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Marangoni
If money is no object, go with the JRZ setup.
For the ultimate user-friendly kit I'd go with the Moton Clubsports. Tweak with them for 5 minutes and you can adjust them from street to DE-level settings...
PSS9s are fantastic on the street and although soft, farily decent on the track.
12-08-2005, 11:52 AM
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Alex, are you saying the JRZs are better than Motons and Ohlins? I'm not disagreeing, I've just never heard that at the track. What would that be based on?
Jim
Jim
12-08-2005, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by JimB
Alex, are you saying the JRZs are better than Motons and Ohlins? I'm not disagreeing, I've just never heard that at the track. What would that be based on?
Jim
Jim
Actually let me rephrase that a bit.. The motons are more "friendly" in terms of the delta and ability to go from super stiff to street-acceptable than the JRZs. With those you generally leave them be since you actually have to have the car in the air to adjust the pressures properly since there's no check valve (silly omission) from the cannisters. By the time you get to tripple, double adjustables it's all in the "set up" so saying one is better than the other is not really accurate. For example I had Cary@ERP set up mine and he obviously does a lot of the JRZs for ALMS teams so it was set up very aggressive for the track. Most Moton ClubSport kits you buy off of the shelf are set up less aggressive for DEs and the street. Hope that explains it a little better
12-08-2005, 01:51 PM
#29
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Bilstein HD's + TRG springs + M030 OR PSS9's are great for steets. i have PSS9 on my street C4s and trust me, you dont' want it any stiffer.
my C2 and GT3 has steve weiner's moton club sport. now you have to be pretty idiotic to run these if you do any less track days than i do (that would be 30 days min. per year and about 6000 track miles). ohlins, motons, jrz are all pretty good. but to do them right, you need someone to pick the right spring rate. certainly you can use lighter springs for street use, but then you seem to defeat the purpose of having such good shox then. at even mild settins (like my track cars) they are so rough that my wife gets headaches just driving it out of my driveway (i am not kidding). and i really HATE to drive my GT3 on street now b/c of the stiffness. it feels as stiff as a spec miata if not stiffer. (that means, i can't even hold my finger still to push the button to change radio stations, again, not kidding). i order small size starbucks coffee and put in their larges cup, so it's about 1/2 full, i have NEVER succeeded in not spilling it as i drive out of their parking lot curb cut. this is how rough it can be. but hey on track, i have NO lean, wall maybe just a tad. i dont' think you want a suspension like that.
furthermore, to benefit from ohlins, jrz, motons, you really need monoballs and that makes the damn car rattle like hell. no one in their right mind would drive a street car with these shox on. it's like driving a cup car on streets.
oh, 6500 inc install will not buy you the BEST. moton rach shox or jrz tripples after all the ancillaries and install and set up will run you 20k EASY.
if you do go with adjustable shox, you need GT3 sway bars front and rear to tune the car to how you like it. my car sits very low and has huge amount of camber and required new droplinks front and rear.
my C2 and GT3 has steve weiner's moton club sport. now you have to be pretty idiotic to run these if you do any less track days than i do (that would be 30 days min. per year and about 6000 track miles). ohlins, motons, jrz are all pretty good. but to do them right, you need someone to pick the right spring rate. certainly you can use lighter springs for street use, but then you seem to defeat the purpose of having such good shox then. at even mild settins (like my track cars) they are so rough that my wife gets headaches just driving it out of my driveway (i am not kidding). and i really HATE to drive my GT3 on street now b/c of the stiffness. it feels as stiff as a spec miata if not stiffer. (that means, i can't even hold my finger still to push the button to change radio stations, again, not kidding). i order small size starbucks coffee and put in their larges cup, so it's about 1/2 full, i have NEVER succeeded in not spilling it as i drive out of their parking lot curb cut. this is how rough it can be. but hey on track, i have NO lean, wall maybe just a tad. i dont' think you want a suspension like that.
furthermore, to benefit from ohlins, jrz, motons, you really need monoballs and that makes the damn car rattle like hell. no one in their right mind would drive a street car with these shox on. it's like driving a cup car on streets.
oh, 6500 inc install will not buy you the BEST. moton rach shox or jrz tripples after all the ancillaries and install and set up will run you 20k EASY.
if you do go with adjustable shox, you need GT3 sway bars front and rear to tune the car to how you like it. my car sits very low and has huge amount of camber and required new droplinks front and rear.
