Bobby Rouse

I am debating between a new C2 and a new C4S. I will be using this as a daily driver and plan on taking it on the track 4-6 times per year. While I like the look of the 4S better, I am concerned about the 4WD (weight, maintenance, handling) I would appreciate any input that will help me decide.

Thanks in advance.

wwest

Bobby,

First, you should call Pat Kerr Inc down on wagner place and buy a raffle ticket for my 99 C2. It was on display at the Blues Ball if you happened to have been there.

The reason my 99 C2 is there is because I upgraded to an 01 C4. Now you likely know my answer to your question, right?

Buy the C4S, you will NOT be disappointed.

The 99 C2, Ocean Blue (Blues Ball Blue according to Pat), my 78 911SC Targa, and the 01 C4 can be seen at <a href="http://www.hobbystage.net/porsche/wwest" target="_blank">http://www.hobbystage.net/porsche/wwest</a>

A C4S in that color would look even better.

996FLT6

C4S got the killer looks and it should outperform ac2 on the track due to wider profile/suspension set-up and brakes. But nothing more exciting then swinging the tail out at will for 2WD. If the C4S had come out at '99 woulda taken that for it's track prowess. I don't think you'
ll lose much in top end performance matter of .1-.2 going to 60 and 1-2 mph top speed which is minute IMHO. Gotta go for it's better track setup. Regards. Please order a speed yellow/black C4S-great color for that car. MIke

Dave P

Bobby,
Get whatever color you like, but you will be disappointed if you don't buy the C4S. The AWD system and turbo-like suspension and brakes give this car superior handling to the C2. My C4S feels like its on rails in turns and is the most fun I've ever had in an automobile!

Zak

No question, if you don't get the C4S you will regret it....I had a '97 C2 and bought it over a new C2....but the C4S was awesome....you won't regret getting one.

ignacio

i love my c4s <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> no regrets bout spending a few extra bucks to get awesome grip both in rain and dry. 14k mi since march 28! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> only a turbo would be more fun (maybe) <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

Carlos from Spain

Bobby,
If you want a daily driver and performance you can get a regular C4 with the ROW M030 suspension upgrade and the Porsche Powerkit (X51)from factory for less than 3000$ more than a C4S.

It will outperform not only a C2 but ALSO a C4S, which would be heavier, less HP and less sportier suspension settings than a C4 M030-MX51. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

scott watkins

You might consider a C2 with X51 and X75 (from gert). This would be a nice setup.

Palting

[quote]Originally posted by Carlos from Spain:
<strong>Bobby,
If you want a daily driver and performance you can get a regular C4 with the ROW M030 suspension upgrade and the Porsche Powerkit (X51)from factory for less than 3000$ more than a C4S.

It will outperform not only a C2 but ALSO a C4S, which would be heavier, less HP and less sportier suspension settings than a C4 M030-MX51. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Just to keep the record straight, the C4S comes witht the 030 as standard equipment . Also, you'll need more than the X51 to best the C4S. You also need to get the turbo brakes, otherwise it will outbrake you at every corner. You also need the wider track, for better corner stability and faster times around the corner.

Why not get a C4S with X51 and the extra lowered suspension (available Jan '03)? To be trutful, the X51 sounds nice, but at the same torque with only 25 HP more, I don't believe it's worth the money from a performance standpoint.

Carlos from Spain

Hi Palting,
Though I like the C4S too, I still believe that a lighter C2/4 with the "Euro"030 or X75 and 345HP will outperform a C4S.

The breaks is not really a weakpoint of the C2/4 (unlike an E46-M3 for example) so the Turbo breaks on a "non-turbo performance" carrera won´t really compensate for the extra weight and less HP and no better suspensions, diddo for the wider track on a non-turbo or non-GT3.

While the C4S is a really beautiful car, you do have to pay for the "turbo-look" along with the few performace upgrades, but if its just performance you want, that extra price tag can be used for only performance options on a regualer carrera for superior overall performance. I myself preferred and bought the C4 Euro-M030/18" with the Aerokit-look and aerodinamics instead of the extra HP of the Powerkit.

... but unless we get Walter Rohl to compare them both at Nurburgring we will never actually settle it

BTW, I read in "Sport Car International" that the C4S had the regular suspensions of the wide-track Turbo tunned to its curb weight, not the M030's.

Palting

Hi, Carlos. I've had some fun needling the C2 X51 guys in previous threads . Of course, it has nothing to do at all with the fact that I am completely enamored by the C4S .

And you are absolutely right. Unless we get a renowned driver to drive the modded cars, we'll never be able to settle it. Some people have tried to settle it using the stock cars, though. In Nurburgring, the stock 2002 C4S is faster than the stock C2 by several seconds per lap. I have the tables somewhere on my hardrive, and I'll post it when I find it. Opinion is that the improved brakes, wider track, stiffer suspension and aerodynamics (plus AWD, IMHO) more than compensated for the increased weight rsulting in the significantly better times.

Regarding the suspension, here's a quote from the Porsche website on the C4S. "Standard equipment includes four-wheel drive, lowered sports suspension (10 mm lower than on the 911 Coupé), and Porsche Stability Management (PSM), making the 911 Carrera 4S one of the most agile, athletic, yet manageable cars ever to bear the Porsche Crest" (bold lettering mine).

Of course, the above response is totally unbiased and completely analytical. The fact that I have a C4S has nothing to do with it. I swear. No, really.

Your car sounds like it looks great!! How about some pics?

Carlos from Spain

[quote] I am completely enamored by the C4S . <hr></blockquote>

Well, you have good reason to be, especially if you track it. Who could not be in love with the C4S?
Even though I think it may be marginally slower than a modded C2/C4 (we are not comparing the 996 to a M3 or Merc AMG )I love the C4S and think its not only absolutly beautiful but a great package and compromise

[quote] In Nurburgring, the stock 2002 C4S is faster than the stock C2 by several seconds per lap. Opinion is that the improved brakes, wider track, stiffer suspension and aerodynamics (plus AWD, IMHO) more than compensated for the increased weight rsulting in the significantly better times.
<hr></blockquote>

I agree, stock the C4S will always be faster. In the Jarama circuit (much shorter than the North Loop) the C4S stock it almost a second faster than a stock C2, I think much to do the suspension settings (the stock C2/C4 suspension settings are ridiculous for a Porsche IMHO) and wider tires. The aerodinamics is actually in favor of the C2 since the wider front from the turbo due to the needed intakes has a greater "overall" drag (not the simple coeficient) which is also responsible for its lower top speed, and the C4S doesn´t get the downforce of the turbo's rear and front spoilers though the rear spoiler has a greater angle of attack than the C2/C4.
Though some people won't agree(like Fangio or Senna), I also think like you in that AWD will help lap times on regular mortals like us and gives a greater safety cushion when driving on the limit being much more forgiving of the mistake us mortals make.


[quote] lowered sports suspension (10 mm lower than on the 911 Coupé) <hr></blockquote>
Like the Turbo it sits 10mm lower than the C2/C4, and shares the turbo suspensions along with the turbo´s wider control arms, etc.

[quote]Your car sounds like it looks great!! How about some pics?
<hr></blockquote>

John Murray

I like the feel of a C2 better. The C4's understeer way too much for me. I would rather a rear drive Carrera 7 days a week. I drive my C2 in the rain all the time. I drive it all year long. No problems as long as you drive with caution.

As far as the track is concerned, I will beat your C4 with my C2......I have outrun 996 Turbos and C4S's.

My car is stock and I do not even have 030....

Palting

[quote]Originally posted by John Murray:
<strong>I
As far as the track is concerned, I will beat your C4 with my C2......I have outrun 996 Turbos and C4S's.

My car is stock and I do not even have 030....</strong><hr></blockquote>

Heh-heh-heh, them's fighting words, John <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

It's all about the driver. I've not only trumped and passed C2's, I've lapped them! Last one had ROW 030 + Fabspeed box and exhaust. He sure sounded great as I came up to him, but I still passed him twice in a 20 min time span over a 2.5 mile track. Can't say I've passed a 996 turbo, but none have passed me either. On the other hand,I've been passed by a prepped late-80's 911 driven by an instructor. I'm not saying I'm Juan Fangio, just that it's all relative to the driver. OTOH, you could be Juan Fangio .

Another point I disagree with you is the understeer. At least on the C4S, and on the tracks I've driven and the way the instructors have guided me after sitting through several laps, the 996 C4S can turn in earlier, then rotate the car with the gas pedal. Car is all stock except for turbo wheels. On the prepped 911 that passed me, my instructor observed that I was able to keep up with him on the esses by turning in earlier, getting on the gas earlier, shortening the driving line around the curves. I think the understeer on the C4S is a misconception, at least for the 996 C4S. At close to the limit, properly modulated, the front wheel drive will turn the car in and around the apex and the rear WILL step out in a controlled fashion. All with PSM on but not intruding. The car certainly has proven that to myself and my last instructor.

Carlos from Spain

Like Palting says, its all relative to the driver. I have a friend who can drive the guts out of his '73 911 RSR so well he will make you look like a teenager on your 996 C2 (he is a professional driver BTW from GT1's). But we are not comparing drivers just cars.

The understeer you get on AWD 996's will depend on your setup, and while initially may tend to understeer turning in, it will oversteer coming out like the C2 if you want.

C2 or the C4 is faster? depends on the situation: on the streets the C4's AWD combined with PSM gives it the upper hand and if it rains, no contest. In a the track, the C2 may pull a fastest lap under professional hands but overall the C4 will pull more consistant laps. And in non-professional hands the C4 is easier to go faster than the C2. At least thats what the pro's say.