OT: Boycott of Michelin?
06-23-2005, 12:47 PM
#46
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David,
If you were there, you would understand there was a fraud perpetrated upon the attendees in order to meet the economic objectives of the parties.
George didn't want the concession stands to have no trade
Bernie needed to get 20 cars on the grid (but not in the race)
Michelin knows that once a car is set up for a high speed race, changing to a low speed race is a complete disadvantage for all those who came prepared. Their request for a chicane was a sham.
The only honest approach was to admit to the fans that the race would only have 6 cars and offer free tickets for next year. That would give the crooks a chance to sue each other to see who would pay in the end.
Instead, the message boards at the track (and there are many big ones) stated "Renew your tickets for next year's race and get a free lap around the track on Thursday"
The announcers were clearly prepared, as the loudspeaker blared "It will be a 6 car race!" as 14 cars pulled into the pits and the red lights extinguished. There was not one mention of the fact that the field was depleted and there was no race. This was stated before it was clear the cars were not changing tires.
The Ferrari times were over 2 seconds off the qualifying pace, despite being in qualifying trim. Only the Minardis seemed to be trying, but were 200 yards back by one lap.
It was a shameful act by all involved.
Michelin's actions were the most repulsive. There was no apology, just an attempt to weasel thru it by creating the diversion of a chicane.
Personally, I hope the FIA penalty is cancellation of the French GP. If the Michelin cars are penalized, they should experience the penalties simultaneously, rather than one at a time. This was a total engineering screw-up, and their response was arrogant and deceitful. AS
If you were there, you would understand there was a fraud perpetrated upon the attendees in order to meet the economic objectives of the parties.
George didn't want the concession stands to have no trade
Bernie needed to get 20 cars on the grid (but not in the race)
Michelin knows that once a car is set up for a high speed race, changing to a low speed race is a complete disadvantage for all those who came prepared. Their request for a chicane was a sham.
The only honest approach was to admit to the fans that the race would only have 6 cars and offer free tickets for next year. That would give the crooks a chance to sue each other to see who would pay in the end.
Instead, the message boards at the track (and there are many big ones) stated "Renew your tickets for next year's race and get a free lap around the track on Thursday"
The announcers were clearly prepared, as the loudspeaker blared "It will be a 6 car race!" as 14 cars pulled into the pits and the red lights extinguished. There was not one mention of the fact that the field was depleted and there was no race. This was stated before it was clear the cars were not changing tires.
The Ferrari times were over 2 seconds off the qualifying pace, despite being in qualifying trim. Only the Minardis seemed to be trying, but were 200 yards back by one lap.
It was a shameful act by all involved.
Michelin's actions were the most repulsive. There was no apology, just an attempt to weasel thru it by creating the diversion of a chicane.
Personally, I hope the FIA penalty is cancellation of the French GP. If the Michelin cars are penalized, they should experience the penalties simultaneously, rather than one at a time. This was a total engineering screw-up, and their response was arrogant and deceitful. AS
06-23-2005, 03:06 PM
#47
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I don't know why my not being there has anything to do with it. Unless, of course, that's some sort of a dig. I've been to each USGP since they came to I(ndy except this year. My opinion isn't changed. Those suing are doing it for the money only, and attorneys taking those cases are doing it for the same reason.
You refer to the crooks suing each other. I'm not sure which crooks you're referring to. Racing is racing, things happen.
You refer to the crooks suing each other. I'm not sure which crooks you're referring to. Racing is racing, things happen.
06-23-2005, 03:08 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Alexander Stemer
David,
If you were there, you would understand there was a fraud perpetrated upon the attendees in order to meet the economic objectives of the parties.
If you were there, you would understand there was a fraud perpetrated upon the attendees in order to meet the economic objectives of the parties.
Even at the start, Schumacker claims he didn't know for sure what the Michelin teams were going to do, and I believe him. I don't think Tony George knew for sure either; I think he held out some hope that the teams would yield at the last minute. I think there was reason to hold out that hope. If you listened to the team radio excerpts as the teams went into the pits, there was lots of frenzied talk about what the other Michelin teams were doing; in other words, they were afraid that some of the teams might break the boycott at the last minute and go for some easy points. David Coulthard was still begging to race after entering the pits, and stayed in his car in the pits longer than anyone else. In the end, I was very pissed off, but I don't feel I was defrauded.
06-23-2005, 06:36 PM
#49
Originally Posted by Irishdriver
What is important here - the rules or the race?
Michelin got it wrong. The went public and said they got it wrong. Once they said there is a chance of crashes if you race with these tyres that was the end of the discussion. How would the law suit look if they had raced and bits of car ended up in the crowd - or a driver died?
So the problem was there. however the rule enforcers (FIA, Mosely) decided that any compromise just to have a race for the fans and the public was not possible. This is what I can not forgive.
They could have given all the points to Bridgestone runners only and had an event that the world could enjoy.
But no, the rules have been up held, the "race" went ahead and we all now know that F1 cares about its rules more than it cares about giving its audience value.
Michelin causeed the problem but FIA refused to do anything about it !!!
Michelin got it wrong. The went public and said they got it wrong. Once they said there is a chance of crashes if you race with these tyres that was the end of the discussion. How would the law suit look if they had raced and bits of car ended up in the crowd - or a driver died?
So the problem was there. however the rule enforcers (FIA, Mosely) decided that any compromise just to have a race for the fans and the public was not possible. This is what I can not forgive.
They could have given all the points to Bridgestone runners only and had an event that the world could enjoy.
But no, the rules have been up held, the "race" went ahead and we all now know that F1 cares about its rules more than it cares about giving its audience value.
Michelin causeed the problem but FIA refused to do anything about it !!!
How the FIA could green light a race after tire company would not gurantee the integrity of the race is far more reprehensible than a tire company that made an enourmous miscalculation. Very sad, because the FIA are still today, continuing to state that tires were safe if certain restrictions were followed. How they can guarantee this without having viewed the data (even as of today) is beyond comprehension. If a fatality had occured as a result of tire failure ,even with restrictions, in legal terms this would be called depraved indifference and the FIA directors would be criminaly responsible.
Ayrton Senna's team were held responsible in Italy for their driver's fatal accident were only recently fully acquited. And that was for a trajedy that no one could forsee.
06-24-2005, 08:27 AM
#51
Rennlist Member
I fully agree with Irish driver, except for the fraud issue. Evidence for intent to commit fraud is present.
The fans were given no opportunity to decide if they wanted to give up a day on the chance there would be an exhibition race instead of a championship contest.
Since all parties knew there could be no race on the original track, and that Michelins wee safe only f there was a chicane, if a race had been run at all, it could only have been with no points to Michelin participants.
With that, all parties knew over 100,000 people would not get what they paid for. The fans should have been notified and offered refunds or free tickets next year. I believe this is similar to the situation CART faced at Texas some years earlier.
But, absolutely no information was disseminated. The big screen message read "Renew your tickets Monday and get a free lap of the track on Thursday before next year's event" The track announcer had a prepared exclamation regarding 6 cars at the race launch.
Why was the secret kept?
To preserve the economic best interest of the principal parties.
The economic loss to the fans is really far beyond the ticket prices.
All food and concession sales would have been lost.
The cost of transportation, food and lodging to get to and from the track ( I live only 150 miles away, and those costs exceeded one ticket)
All weekend hotel and restaurant sales were wasted (estimated by the city to be over $100,000,000)
Any company that used the event for business promotion wasted their entire PR cost and lost the economic advantage the event ws to have accomplished. This includes the sponsors and the cost of sponsorship in the US
TV advertisers lost their market
And every fan there lost Father's Day. My family supported my going, and made the sacrafice of not having Dad at home because they knew I would enjoy it.
I have been involved in racing for over 30 years and have attended lots of poorly run events, but not one approached the absolute disregard for the fans seen here. I have also not seen similar behavior in any other sport. Rainouts, Floods, storms, earthquake damage, plane crashes etc. have all resulted in cancelled matches, but the interest of the fans has always been protected.
Every other sport has a "For the good of the sport" clause which allows the governing body to mandate an outcome. This sham was perpetrated for the good of the financial stakeholders.
Re Davidmichael's points:
No dig intended. I just meant the message boards and the announcer's prepared exclamation made it very clear that there was intent to deceive the fans so no one left before the start.
Since lawyers work for money, you are right in that everyone who sues wants money. However, this case is about making sure the damaged party is compensated. That's justice.
I personally don't care about the money (8 tickets for about $85 each). I was cheated and I'm trying to decide if I would ever return to Indy if a future event is held. Unless the fans are made whole, I don't think so. It goes back to that "Trick me once, shame on me...." parable.
Things do happen in racing, but up til now everybody has determined a fair way to fulfill their obligations to the fans. These crooks didn't. AS
The fans were given no opportunity to decide if they wanted to give up a day on the chance there would be an exhibition race instead of a championship contest.
Since all parties knew there could be no race on the original track, and that Michelins wee safe only f there was a chicane, if a race had been run at all, it could only have been with no points to Michelin participants.
With that, all parties knew over 100,000 people would not get what they paid for. The fans should have been notified and offered refunds or free tickets next year. I believe this is similar to the situation CART faced at Texas some years earlier.
But, absolutely no information was disseminated. The big screen message read "Renew your tickets Monday and get a free lap of the track on Thursday before next year's event" The track announcer had a prepared exclamation regarding 6 cars at the race launch.
Why was the secret kept?
To preserve the economic best interest of the principal parties.
The economic loss to the fans is really far beyond the ticket prices.
All food and concession sales would have been lost.
The cost of transportation, food and lodging to get to and from the track ( I live only 150 miles away, and those costs exceeded one ticket)
All weekend hotel and restaurant sales were wasted (estimated by the city to be over $100,000,000)
Any company that used the event for business promotion wasted their entire PR cost and lost the economic advantage the event ws to have accomplished. This includes the sponsors and the cost of sponsorship in the US
TV advertisers lost their market
And every fan there lost Father's Day. My family supported my going, and made the sacrafice of not having Dad at home because they knew I would enjoy it.
I have been involved in racing for over 30 years and have attended lots of poorly run events, but not one approached the absolute disregard for the fans seen here. I have also not seen similar behavior in any other sport. Rainouts, Floods, storms, earthquake damage, plane crashes etc. have all resulted in cancelled matches, but the interest of the fans has always been protected.
Every other sport has a "For the good of the sport" clause which allows the governing body to mandate an outcome. This sham was perpetrated for the good of the financial stakeholders.
Re Davidmichael's points:
No dig intended. I just meant the message boards and the announcer's prepared exclamation made it very clear that there was intent to deceive the fans so no one left before the start.
Since lawyers work for money, you are right in that everyone who sues wants money. However, this case is about making sure the damaged party is compensated. That's justice.
I personally don't care about the money (8 tickets for about $85 each). I was cheated and I'm trying to decide if I would ever return to Indy if a future event is held. Unless the fans are made whole, I don't think so. It goes back to that "Trick me once, shame on me...." parable.
Things do happen in racing, but up til now everybody has determined a fair way to fulfill their obligations to the fans. These crooks didn't. AS
06-24-2005, 09:03 AM
#52
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Alexander Stemer
Unless the fans are made whole, I don't think so. It goes back to that "Trick me once, shame on me...." parable.
Things do happen in racing, but up til now everybody has determined a fair way to fulfill their obligations to the fans. These crooks didn't. AS
Things do happen in racing, but up til now everybody has determined a fair way to fulfill their obligations to the fans. These crooks didn't. AS
The Indpls. Motor Speedway has not commented yet one way or the other about refunds. I'm sure they're waiting to see how things play out with the FIA and Max Mosley's suggestion to Michelin that they pay up.
Of course, the biggest charade of all is the scum-sucking attorneys who don't wait for the Speedway to make a decision--they were typing out their lawsuit before Coulthard shut his engine down. Really a sad, sad, way to make a living--lining things up to make sure you get a cut of the refund even before it's been determined that your services are needed. How do these guys look at themselves in the mirrror without putting a gun to their head? Sorry for the anti-class action attorney rant, but I feel a bit better now.
06-24-2005, 08:20 PM
#53
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Been watching all of the threads on this subject. Went over www.speedtv.com and cruised the Formula 1 board. A lot of flaming going on over there. Seems for our interests at least Cup race was good. Bad Michelin/good Michelin, Bad Bernie/Good Bernie, Bad Max/Bad Max....
Blame, compensation, yada, yada. I still hold that Michelin is the root cause of the whole **** up. Then we get emperer Max (do you see how Bernie is getting off easy in most commentary?) doing his Al Haig impression. Paul Stoddart opening up the door for a peak from his perspective and Jean Todt making like he just wasn't consulted about anything as important as a race. Michelin starts it with a monumental screw up (Goodyear had some of the same issues when they were in racing big time and alwas found a way to deal with it. Remember the Hoosier/Goodyear fight when Goodyear brounght bad tires to the track and both companies worked to mount Hoosiers for everyone?) and tries to shift the blame. Follow the bouncing ball if you can.
I think I will just support the folks who race for the fun of it; SCCA and the vintage guys. Someone said they couldn't see Fangio, or Moss, or Ascari, or Stuck, or any of the drivers from the "glory days" of racing being part of this circus. I don't know, maybe this is an accurate reflection of our current world. This debacle is beginning to look like the NHL or MLB when they went on strike. I have followed F1 since the '60's, watched the egos kill open wheel in the US (thanks Tony) and now see these spoiled kids killing the beauty of F1. Is anyone going to watch a race again for the foreseeable future without thinking its all about getting your money to them?
Just a few thoughts for Friday
Blame, compensation, yada, yada. I still hold that Michelin is the root cause of the whole **** up. Then we get emperer Max (do you see how Bernie is getting off easy in most commentary?) doing his Al Haig impression. Paul Stoddart opening up the door for a peak from his perspective and Jean Todt making like he just wasn't consulted about anything as important as a race. Michelin starts it with a monumental screw up (Goodyear had some of the same issues when they were in racing big time and alwas found a way to deal with it. Remember the Hoosier/Goodyear fight when Goodyear brounght bad tires to the track and both companies worked to mount Hoosiers for everyone?) and tries to shift the blame. Follow the bouncing ball if you can.
I think I will just support the folks who race for the fun of it; SCCA and the vintage guys. Someone said they couldn't see Fangio, or Moss, or Ascari, or Stuck, or any of the drivers from the "glory days" of racing being part of this circus. I don't know, maybe this is an accurate reflection of our current world. This debacle is beginning to look like the NHL or MLB when they went on strike. I have followed F1 since the '60's, watched the egos kill open wheel in the US (thanks Tony) and now see these spoiled kids killing the beauty of F1. Is anyone going to watch a race again for the foreseeable future without thinking its all about getting your money to them?
Just a few thoughts for Friday
