P-Car fanatic

I would have liked to have been a flie on the wall at one of the off-record bernie meetings

I am sure the air was a dark shade of blue

ELUSIVE

So basically what some of you guys are saying is that if Tim Duncan wears out his shoes in the NBA Finals they should just shorten the game from 48 to 40 minutes?
Perhaps they could just throw a 3rd hoop worth 5 points in the center of the court to slow the pace down..BUT only for this one game and because the shoe manufacture screwed up.

Michelin messed up and FIA has a job to do. They would have done the same exact thing regardless of the track at hand. It's unfortunate that it had to happen on US soil...because otherwise 99% of americans wouldn't even of known about it.

Bill_C4S

Williams getting word to the Columbians....???

Montoya drives for West Mclaren Mercedes.

dadc4s

Oops, I meant to say Mclaren, I am still remembering last year when Montoya worked for Williams.
On other thing I found fascninating, Just after the Michelin cars pittend, a fax from the CEO of Toyota was read in our paddock lounge which attempted to apologize while at the same time not admit any wrongdoing. What was fascinating was seeing the Japaneese buisnessmen in out group snap to attention and bow at the mere mention of the name of the Toyota leader, he has god-like status there.

yetis

After driving 12 hours to see this, I was pretty pissed. The only thing that made up for it was the Porsche Super Cup race. Anyone know who the poor devil in the Dell Supercup car was?

I agree entirely with dadsc4 regarding bad faith and selling tickets that everyone knew wouldn't occur... Even doing the drivers parade. argh!!!!!

As for people already aware of no race on saturday:
On Saturday afternoon, as we watched the Supercup race from the stands, we ran into David Hobbs and not make a big deal out of things ask, how things going?
His response at the time, seemed oddly out of place " I have been better"....Wow!

I guess if we only knew what was coming...

Then, in the airport, my friend who I went with, ran into Jenson Button in a bar! (guess they all don't get the schumi treatment). He said exactly what dadsc4 said regarding Toyota and qualifying with pole with virtually no gas.

Fast40th

Fan sues over Grand Prix 'race'
Larry Bowers, a Colorado resident, has filed a class action lawsuit against the Federation de l’Automobile (FIA), Formula One Group, Formula One Administration, Michelin Tires and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway following Sunday’s United States Grand Prix.

Bowers, represented by Indianapolis-based attorney William Bock III, filed suit claiming the 2005 USGP was fraudulent after 14 of the 20 drivers pitted and withdrew after the formation lap of the race because of a dispute surrounding the use of Michelin tires on the track.

The lawsuit claims Formula One, the FIA, Michelin, the teams equipped by Michelin and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway forged an agreement allowing the Michelin teams to participate in the formation lap and then exit the track prior to the start of the race.

“The alleged ‘race’ participated by just three teams did not constitute a true grand prix race under FIA and Formula One rules in that the race was started with an insufficient number of participants,” the lawsuit reads.

Bowers, who bought five tickets to this year’s race and has been a USGP ticket holder since its inception in 2000, is looking to receive a refund for the tickets as well as other costs paid toward attending the USGP.

The controversy failed to dissuade some fans from showing up today at the Speedway to renew their tickets for next year's race. Others, however, were there to ask for refunds. Speedway officials were not offering refunds, but did take note of those requesting their money back.

wross996tt

Very entertaining thread. I am curious why we seek to blame someone or some company? The question is what should be done in the future. I understand there is a group responsible for enforcing rules, but the rules should not conflict with safety concerns. Unfortunately all of the safety concerns were not thoroughly understood a priori[I]. This is why there are people involved to interpret the rules and make judgements based on situational analysis.

I think if Michelin thought there was a safety concern they acted apropriately (although I'll jump out on a limb guessing there are some people that would like to see the crashes). I also think the proceeds from the race should be refunded (but I doubt they will). Will this effect whether I will buy Michelin? (I long for the old Yko 008s) I wouldn't boycott a company that made a decision for safety over potential $. Just my $.02.

skl

I'm no big Ferrari fan (though my two sons are because they're big MS fans) but Michelin didn't do its homework. BS had some crappy tires earlier this year and paid the price, having to withdraw their car before the finish because of excess wear and that stupid tire rule. Nobody cried foul because of that. Ferrari and BS went to work and made better tires. BS probably had some inside info because of the sister Firestones on their IRL crapwagons and used it to their advantage. Michelin is a BIG company and should have done the same homework and brought a tire that would hold up. The resurfacing had something to do with it, but they've had those forces on those tires through that corner ever since 2000- I was at that race and thank God there was a race that day. I place the blame at Michelin's feet-- and as others have said, can you imagine what the crowd, say in Brazil, would have done in the same situation? Or Imola for that matter...

Irishdriver

What is important here - the rules or the race?

Michelin got it wrong. The went public and said they got it wrong. Once they said there is a chance of crashes if you race with these tyres that was the end of the discussion. How would the law suit look if they had raced and bits of car ended up in the crowd - or a driver died?

So the problem was there. however the rule enforcers (FIA, Mosely) decided that any compromise just to have a race for the fans and the public was not possible. This is what I can not forgive.

They could have given all the points to Bridgestone runners only and had an event that the world could enjoy.

But no, the rules have been up held, the "race" went ahead and we all now know that F1 cares about its rules more than it cares about giving its audience value.

Michelin causeed the problem but FIA refused to do anything about it !!!

fast1

I think if Michelin thought there was a safety concern they acted apropriately (although I'll jump out on a limb guessing there are some people that would like to see the crashes).

I believe that Michelin acted out of PYA rather than some noble reason. If they said it was fine to race and their tires failed reulting in crashes, injuries, and maybe even deaths, Michelin would have been sued big time.

As far as crashes are concerned, I have never met a F1 fan who went to the race to see crashes. All the fans I know look at crashes as a nuisance rather than something that provides entertainment value. All that F1 fans would like to see is a competitive race and maybe with a little luck, a well executed pass or two.

JJS 03S

Seems to me that knowing in advance that the race was going to be a fiasco is more than bad faith. In legal terms it is called: FRAUD.

Fast40th

JUNE 21, 2005
The madness continues
We hear that the FIA has ordered Michelin to supply it with full details of all of its tyre failures in recent times and that the federation has instructed the French tyre maker that the information will be put in front of an independent technical expert to decide whether or not Michelin's F1 tyres are dangerous. We have not not seen the letter from FIA President Max Mosley to Michelin but apparently it suggests that the outcome of this could be the exclusion of Michelin from the World Championship, which would leave seven teams with no tyres for future races.
As most of the cars are designed specifically for Michelin tyres this would mean that cars could not be run because of safety issues.
We expect to see the teams providing a robust defence of the charges against them and we would expect to see a similar reaction from Michelin.
The alternative is for the companies involved to begin to quit the F1 scene - which is quite possible now - which would be the start of an even bigger disaster for the sport.
The FIA World Council next week will be the most significant FIA meeting for more than 10 years with the major question not being the details of what happened in Indianapolis but rather whether the best interest of the sport is to have a World Championship featuring the best of the best or a ruined championship over which the FIA has full control to do as it pleases.
In the second case, it is likely that there will be a rival championship featuring the refugees of F1 as we now know it.
For us, there is only one acceptable answer but we must see if the World Council members agree or whether they believe that it is best to kill what we have and start again with something new.

1AS

A few thoughts:
Tony George is not blameless. He knew there would be no race at least 90 minutes before the scheduled start, but most likely 24 hours before. There are many screens on the track to disseminate information, yet the entire farce was allowed to go on up til the minute the announcer said "There will be 6 cars in the race!" when the red lights turned off. Clearly he knew as well.
The fans were not only cheated, we were deceived. Why? Clearly 1 reason is because the vendors are the only source of George revenue.
Another reason seems to be with Bernie. I will speculate that his agreement states he must get 20 cars to the grid. The entire sham acomplished that.
Another reason is the upcoming termination of the Concorde agreement. Ferrari is the only manufacturer on board with Bernie. 9 of 10 teams said they would compete with a chicane. Only Ferrari said it would not. The FIA should have forced the race to go on without Ferrari (or called their bluff), except that would screw Bernie with having any base to continue his ridiculous domination of F1. So, no race occurred because Ferrari would have been pissed.
Michelin"s culpability is apparant. Firestone(aka Bridgestone) tested at Indy for a month in May. Michelin did nothing.
Had Michelin had a tire in which they had confidence, all 14 cars could have started from the pits after a tire change, and accepted the time penalty. That penalty would have been wiped out by the first safety car.
Since the rules allow tire changing for "safety" reasons, the clear implication is that Michelin had no safe tire.
I had 8 tickets. A refund is appropriate, but it's meaningless in the face of the fact that 8 men lost a day of their lives. Father's Day to boot.
Everyone involved should hold their heads in shame. Michelin, Bernie, Mosely, George, and everyone who was complicit in keeping the shameful secret. If the news had been broadcast Saturday, all of us would have stayed home, and Ferrari would have won their points in front of empty stands. AS

bet

There was no secret about the possiblity of the Michelin teams not running. Speedtv.com reported the possiblity on its web site Saturday night and printed parts of the letter from Michelin to the FIA. By Sunday morning all the major F1 websites were reporting the possible boycott and/or the demand for a chicane. The late evening news by WISHTV 8 also reported on Saturday night about the tire problme and that an announcement would be made at 11 am by Bernie. The announcement did not amount to much other than the FIA would not approve a chicane.

I have no love lost for Tony George because I hold him responsible for the death of open wheel racing in the US with his IRL vs. CART power play. However, unfortunately I think he is innocent on this occassion.

It seems from Paul Stoddart's comments that George, the IMS and even Bernie Eccelstone were under the impression that some type of race involving the Michelin teams would take place up until about when the pit lane opened. At this point it became very clear that Mosley and the FIA had no intention of letting anything happen. This is also supported by comments made by ITV reporters that the FIA waited until the very last moment to fully crush anything suggested by the Michelin teams.

The other thing to realize is that the politics are so heavy in F1 right now you had to wonder if it was merely a political more or really a problem. Much like Minardi in Australia. They claimed they would not be able to field cars with the 2005 spec. aero dynamics. The FIA called the bluff and said too bad then you don't get race and will be in violation of your contract. Then "poof" new aerodynamic treatments for the Minardi cars appear after it was evident that the FIA was not going change its opinion. You just had to think the USGP was another standoff like that and you were just waiting for someone to blink. No one blinked and they crashed right into each other.

Did the fans and paying customers get cheated? Absolutely. Was it George's fault? No. Bernie? Everyday it looks more and more like the answer to that is No and that Bernie's power and influence is slipping (although a theory is he is letting it appear that way so that he can buy back control for the Banks at a cheaper price). I too was a paying customer of the fiasco.

Davidmichael

With *** holes suing for fraud, I wouldn't blame FIA if they pulled out of the US. It has nothing to do with fraud ,it has only to do with money.

If I were Michelin, I would pull out of F!, as soon as the contract allows.

I personally only buy Michelins, and will continue to do so.