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@peterp I’ve spent loads of time on the Crutchfield site already. Seems like there are a bunch of options at every price point for 4” speakers that fit the dash and rear. Many of them ghanés mounting tabs that are made to be easily clipped off, so they are easier to fit.
Did you check out the SpeakerCompare tool to listen and compare the various speaker brands/models? I think that's probably the best way to get a feel for the sound differences between them. Use a good pair of headphones or a good audio system if you can. It is a very cool tool for evaluating speakers (home and car).
Originally Posted by wsrgklt
@peterp did you glue the speakers to the rings or can you just clamp them together with the screws?
I think I glued them in with 3M emblem/plastic glue, they may well get sandwiched by the screws, so maybe you can get away without gluing -- it's been too long for me to remember.
Originally Posted by wsrgklt
Also, Alpine SPS 410s are still available on Amazon and elsewhere. I’ve read lots of positive things about them, and the price is nice, but I think I want something with higher power handling and lower bass extension.
Generally, I wouldn't worry about power handling, the factory amp does not put out that much power. The Alpines sound better than stock, but there are serious limits to what any speaker can produce with a 4" "woofer" -- I think this is true even for the much more expensive Focal speakers. The standards on audio specs are pretty loose, so I don't really trust the low-end frequency limit to be a very good indicator of bass extension (not that manufacturers are lying, just that their specs are typically not "apples to apples" in how they are measured across brands).
There isn't going to be much bass extension by definition with 4" drivers. In a full home speaker enclosure, it's possible to design creative things to get more bass extension out of 4", but in the relatively open setting as they are mounted in the 996, no 4" is going to provide any decent bass extension. The door woofers will provide most of the bass and should already be tuned to blend low frequency reproduction very well with dash speakers. I would use SpeakerCompare listening on Crutchfield as much more of a basis for choosing than specifications -- every speaker sounds very different when you listen to them side-by-side. The recordings are done in the exact same way for all speakers, so they are "apples vs apples" even though they won't replicate how they sound in the car. When you find the speaker that sounds best to you, make sure if fits. Be sure to click "Equal Volume" in their SpeakerCompare tool, the default "Equal Power" makes no sense at all for comparing speakers.
So I replaced my dash speakers with Alpine S-S40s today. They sound way better. The old speaker surrounds were starting to get gummy and disintegrate. New speakers are much tighter in the mid and bass frequencies. I have another set that I’m going to install in the back. Old vs New. Look how much bigger the new speaker magnet is than the old Nokia unit.
I used the cut down baskets from the old speakers to mount the new ones along with the wiring adapters from Crutchfield. It was pretty simple. I did not need to glue them together, they are clamped tight once screwed together.
laser cut discs to install 4" Infinity drivers into 'modified' OEM speaker frames.
Construction adhesive to build an airtight and rattle proof setup.
Left the door woofers to do their job.
Well then @wyovino may have the right idea: replace the old door speakers with new stock ones.
Everyone seems to agree the dash speakers are junk and the best thing to change first. Are the dash and rear speakers also 2ohm or are they 4ohm? It’s difficult to find 4 inch 2ohm speakers.
OE door speakers run at a constant 2 ohm impedance output from the Nokia or HAES amplifiers. Replacing the door speakers with standard 4-ohms will cause popping or distortion in the bass range at higher level. Ask me how I know. hahaha
The dash and rear speakers run at a nominal 4 ohm impediance.
If you want direct replacements for your OE 2-ohm door speaker. This is some of the best sound for the buck...
The Crutchfield site says it doesn't fit my car - 2000 C2 with HiFi option. Is that just because the case needs to be modified as people have done with other speakers?
The Crutchfield site says it doesn't fit my car - 2000 C2 with HiFi option. Is that just because the case needs to be modified as people have done with other speakers?
most 5 1/4" speakers will fit the doors, but if you're using the factory amp you won't get full range, just low frequency.
I replaced the amp and went with a 5 1/4" component set leaving the dash speakers empty and replacing the dash tweeter and door woofer.
The Crutchfield site says it doesn't fit my car - 2000 C2 with HiFi option. Is that just because the case needs to be modified as people have done with other speakers?
From memory (in other words, I could be wrong) I think Crutchfield has 3 fit categories: 1) fits; 2) fits with mods; 3) doesn't fit.
It says doesn't fit. From the picture, It looks like tweeter sits out a bit from the rest of the woofer -- I wonder if it is tagged as not fitting because it would hit the grill in the 996.
It's very cool to see that a vendor covered the "2-ohm" case for OEM replacment, though I'm very surprised they would have the tweeter stick out so far (if it is as far as it looks in the picture) since that would seem to be an impediment for OEM fit. In the case of the 996, where high frequencies are cut anyway, maybe it's possible to break off the tweeter.
I also wonder whether this would sound better than the OEM 996 woofer. I don't think the stock woofer is that bad. I do like the idea of using a woofer, and not a subwoofer (which overwhelms the door enclosure (rattles)).
He'll answer every question you have. I have called and emailed and he's legit. I just redid my audio (Alpine Amp, Kenwood HU / Hertz speakers) and bought it all from him, ready to install, plug and play.
From memory (in other words, I could be wrong) I think Crutchfield has 3 fit categories: 1) fits; 2) fits with mods; 3) doesn't fit.
It says doesn't fit. From the picture, It looks like tweeter sits out a bit from the rest of the woofer -- I wonder if it is tagged as not fitting because it would hit the grill in the 996.
It's very cool to see that a vendor covered the "2-ohm" case for OEM replacment, though I'm very surprised they would have the tweeter stick out so far (if it is as far as it looks in the picture) since that would seem to be an impediment for OEM fit. In the case of the 996, where high frequencies are cut anyway, maybe it's possible to break off the tweeter.
I also wonder whether this would sound better than the OEM 996 woofer. I don't think the stock woofer is that bad. I do like the idea of using a woofer, and not a subwoofer (which overwhelms the door enclosure (rattles)).
Leave the doors alone, they are subs, not 2-way's.
Leave the doors alone, they are subs, not 2-way's.
The factory door speaker is much more of a woofer than it is a sub. I have not advocated replacing the door speakers, in fact I have advocated for keeping the door woofers in several posts in this thread (see post #19 for example). I was only commenting on the fit of the new 2 ohm speaker.
The factory door speaker is much more of a woofer than it is a sub. I have not advocated replacing the door speakers, in fact I have advocated for keeping the door woofers in several posts in this thread (see post #19 for example). I was only commenting on the fit of the new 2 ohm speaker.
Coincidentally I did the upgrade of the standard hifi in my 996 this weekend. I made a mix. Alpine SPG-10c2 in the dash. And German Audio CC 4008 in the back. The German Audio have a theoretically better low range.
Fitting the Alpines inside the mounting ring is a bit of a pita as I did not have proper tools to make the inside of the ring better. An option is to just trim the tabs on the Alpines (not cut off completely) and glue the trimmed tabs on top of the flange of the ring. You could use some additional adhesive to fill the gaps around. Saves the machining of the ring.
The German Audios were a bit easier in that respect.
The connectors to the speakers in the car are AUDI/VW. As shown in one of the previous posts. I re-used the existing socket on the speaker mount by soldering two pieces of speaker wire From the socket to the terminals on the new speaker.
Replacing the door speakers is not a good idea unless you find stock ones. In most cars, the door speakers are interchangeable because they are not in enclosures. They function like an infinite baffle, or at most, an aperiodic enclosure. The 996 door speakers, at least in my Bose system, are a true ported box--a Helmholtz resonator. (As folks are so fond of pointing out the stock air intake is.) The frequency to which the box is tuned is a function of the size of the box and the geometry of the port. It ONLY works with a speaker that has the same Qts, Fs, and Vas (the basic Thiele/Small parameters). A mismatched speaker could give you a big hump in the bass, but that would not sound accurate or have the right midrange. It could also have no bass at all. The only way to match that factory door box is to measure the volume and port, know the T/S specs of the speaker, and run it through computer models. (Or testing, if you have the gear. The port isn't simple, so a true model would need to be done with fairly sophisticated software, not the free stuff).
Critically, a different driver (speaker) will not go go any lower because the bass extension is mostly governed by the port. Even if it could, lower is generally the opposite of louder. (By louder I mean more volume with the same input power. This is "Hoffman's law," which provides you can have only have two of the three features of small size, bass extension, and high sensitivity.) If you want something different, you need to change the box too. (Stuffing it enough to turn it into an aperiodic might work for certain speakers, especially if you drilled holes in it, but that is beyond the scope of my comments here.)
Separately, I see all sorts of posts with people talking about the age of the speaker. 20 years is not old for a speaker unless it has seen a bunch of UV (for exposed materials that react to UV, like most paper cones) and/or it the surround deteriorated (foam that rotted or fabric that stiffened). That won't have been the case here unless the car was in a flood (in which case, don't worry about the audio!). (The motor may have lost a tiny bit of steam, but not enough to make the slightest difference).
On the other hand, 20 years is at or beyond the life of an audio capacitor, especially ones that were chosen to be tiny rather than great quality. Even good caps generally only have a 20 year lifespan. I'd put money on the amp and receiver not sounding nearly as good as they did new. (Think of the 60hz hum you hear if you power on an old radio. That is a bad power supply filter cap. We don't get that hum in car audio because the power source started off as DC rather than AC from the wall. But you will notice things like a lack of bass!).
So, my advice is the leave the door speakers alone. I haven't pulled the dash speakers out, but I bet those are infinite baffle and you could replace them with whatever car speakers fit. The rears are infinite baffle and you could do whatever you want. Then, as others have said, and what would make by far the biggest difference, is all new electronics. Just be sure your amp can drive the 2 ohm door speakers without any trouble. And to my eye, a lot of car audio is blingy garbage (not unlike many aspects of a modern Bimmer!), so choose wisely.
Paul
(I'm an avid audio hobbyist. I've designed and built a lot of speakers and amplifiers and used to sell speakers to diy'ers. I've worked with audio gear that cost more than my 996. I'm leaving my stock 996 audio alone unless and until it dies, aside from adding an aux input to the Becker unit.)
One more thing: if the speakers I mentioned could be replaced, the dash and rear panels, are 2 ohm (impedance--not the DC resistance that will show on your multimeter and be lower), putting a 4 ohm speaker in the same hole will probably cause the amp to put out half the power. So, it is entirely possible you could swap them out and get less volume from the factory electronics (a speaker could be twice the impedance but also 3db more sensitive rendering it a wash, but that isn't terribly likely). Thus, if you aren't replacing electronics, I'd try and match the impedance of whatever is in there.
08-01-2020, 05:38 PM
