authority 600 hp kit
11-17-2003, 03:49 AM
#16
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take a 97 twin turbo w/$150K window sticker...
plus $50K in engine mods, 1,300 miles orig miles perfect condition and priced right
it would even make steve think twice about autothority.
i have the utmost respect for this man (and neighbor, walking dx)i just wanted to hear the pro and cons of the system. there is always more than one side to every story and i like to hear them all
that is one reason steve is so sharp right?
he listens and learns
so any stage III owners out there?
thanks
it would even make steve think twice about autothority.
i have the utmost respect for this man (and neighbor, walking dx)i just wanted to hear the pro and cons of the system. there is always more than one side to every story and i like to hear them all
that is one reason steve is so sharp right?
he listens and learns
so any stage III owners out there?
thanks
11-17-2003, 09:30 AM
#17
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Here is what the Autothority Website calls the Stage III
"Six hundred horsepower is a level rarely seen outside of professional motor sports, LeMans, NASCAR, etc. Even so, we decided to pull out all the stops and make this level of performance available to those who quite simply must have the best. Stage III takes your 911 turbo to its ultimate potential on premium street fuel, while still maintaining factory levels of response and reliability. Peak boost is kept at just over 1 bar, but new high-flow turbo chargers keep flowing where the stock units fall off. Race quality hardware rounds out the rest of Stage III, including new catalytic converters and high performance light flywheel package. Finally, a height adjustable coil-over suspension keeps all 607 BHP firmly on the pavement, no matter where it is run. Note: For off-road use only.
Price: $29950.00"
This is not very specific but does not mention any internal modifications to the engine which might be bad if the engine really does produce 600hp. To me, this language says - K24 Turbos - Chip - High Flow Cats, High Flow Air Filter, Lightweight Flywheel. One possibility is to have the car dyno tested because it might not produce the 607hp promised here unless the boost were turned up higher than the 1 bar indicated on the website.
That might be good because of course anything greater than what I am running (560hp) on the Autothority dyno should never be attempted without the internal modifications!
The current owner mentioned $50k spent so it is possible that the internal mods were done and also that he has been running with a better oil cooler. So - I get back to the original idea of the need for specifics.
Autothority has employed many talented people over the years. You might even be able to identify who worked on your car if internal work was done.
Whether you buy one that has been modified, have the work done or do it yourself it is big bucks. There seem to be some generally accepted principals of getting more power from these engines. These seem to include bigger turbos - chip - high flow cats - 1 bar boost, improved oil cooler, internal modifications over a certain power output ... All of these except the oil cooler and internal mods are mentioned on the Stage III website writeup so that might be a decent start. I question the 600hp without cams or overboost so maybe the power is not such that the internal mods were necessary.
Has anyone on this list had their 993tt engine come apart? If so, what did it take to fix it? My guess is that a broken case would get very expensive but quite often, a blown engine does damage only to one cylinder or head or the bearings.... Put it back together (add the strengthened parts) and motor down the road.
I had a 2.8 liter high compression engine with webers on an old 911S and it failed due to the piston hitting the head. I rebuilt the engine - added a shim under the heads (or cylinders - I forget which) and I was on my way.
Good luck.
Mike Sobota
"Six hundred horsepower is a level rarely seen outside of professional motor sports, LeMans, NASCAR, etc. Even so, we decided to pull out all the stops and make this level of performance available to those who quite simply must have the best. Stage III takes your 911 turbo to its ultimate potential on premium street fuel, while still maintaining factory levels of response and reliability. Peak boost is kept at just over 1 bar, but new high-flow turbo chargers keep flowing where the stock units fall off. Race quality hardware rounds out the rest of Stage III, including new catalytic converters and high performance light flywheel package. Finally, a height adjustable coil-over suspension keeps all 607 BHP firmly on the pavement, no matter where it is run. Note: For off-road use only.
Price: $29950.00"
This is not very specific but does not mention any internal modifications to the engine which might be bad if the engine really does produce 600hp. To me, this language says - K24 Turbos - Chip - High Flow Cats, High Flow Air Filter, Lightweight Flywheel. One possibility is to have the car dyno tested because it might not produce the 607hp promised here unless the boost were turned up higher than the 1 bar indicated on the website.
That might be good because of course anything greater than what I am running (560hp) on the Autothority dyno should never be attempted without the internal modifications!
The current owner mentioned $50k spent so it is possible that the internal mods were done and also that he has been running with a better oil cooler. So - I get back to the original idea of the need for specifics.
Autothority has employed many talented people over the years. You might even be able to identify who worked on your car if internal work was done.
Whether you buy one that has been modified, have the work done or do it yourself it is big bucks. There seem to be some generally accepted principals of getting more power from these engines. These seem to include bigger turbos - chip - high flow cats - 1 bar boost, improved oil cooler, internal modifications over a certain power output ... All of these except the oil cooler and internal mods are mentioned on the Stage III website writeup so that might be a decent start. I question the 600hp without cams or overboost so maybe the power is not such that the internal mods were necessary.
Has anyone on this list had their 993tt engine come apart? If so, what did it take to fix it? My guess is that a broken case would get very expensive but quite often, a blown engine does damage only to one cylinder or head or the bearings.... Put it back together (add the strengthened parts) and motor down the road.
I had a 2.8 liter high compression engine with webers on an old 911S and it failed due to the piston hitting the head. I rebuilt the engine - added a shim under the heads (or cylinders - I forget which) and I was on my way.
Good luck.
Mike Sobota
11-17-2003, 06:16 PM
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Authothority
I have a 1996 tt with Authority stage 2.5
Have put 17,000 miles on it since acquiring it last Nov. Thats 4,500 miles in one week- combined track and highway (One lap of America) plus several track days and lots of mid range highway trips - but not much local driving. In addition to the stage 2 (500hp claimed) I do have hybrid turbos, a cargraphic aux cooler, fabspeed cat bypass, LWF etc. Here in the east we have real gas (94 Sunoco) and I keep the boost to 1 bar. No problems to date. Autothority has admitted some issue with left coast cars- but I dont know of any problems here in the east.
Like any shop/tuner, there are good mechanics and not so good at Autothority and everywhere else. Furthermore, three different shops will reccommend 3 different tuners. Thats why there is more than one tuner, more that one suspension manufacturer, or more than one manufacturer of body mods. Different strokes....
Sometimes I get the feeling on this forum that the left coasters think they are the only ones who know anything or who are qualifed to modify a TT. Unfortunatly we can't all have Steve Weiner work on our cars. The mods are only half the issue, how was the car driven, maintianed etc is also important. As you have been well advised, have the car fully checked out, maybe run some dyno tests/diagnostics and see if its really what its claimed to be. Most importantly, ask for ALL the documention of the work done (get it from Autothority if necessary) and take the guess work out of the decision.
Yes you can buy a pristine "stock" car and then spend a ton of $ doing all the same changes that a majority of the people on this list have done or want to do (turbos, fuel, ECU, cats, LWF, suspension etc) or you can reseach the specific car and make an educated, calculated decision on whether to purchase or not.
Good luck
Have put 17,000 miles on it since acquiring it last Nov. Thats 4,500 miles in one week- combined track and highway (One lap of America) plus several track days and lots of mid range highway trips - but not much local driving. In addition to the stage 2 (500hp claimed) I do have hybrid turbos, a cargraphic aux cooler, fabspeed cat bypass, LWF etc. Here in the east we have real gas (94 Sunoco) and I keep the boost to 1 bar. No problems to date. Autothority has admitted some issue with left coast cars- but I dont know of any problems here in the east.
Like any shop/tuner, there are good mechanics and not so good at Autothority and everywhere else. Furthermore, three different shops will reccommend 3 different tuners. Thats why there is more than one tuner, more that one suspension manufacturer, or more than one manufacturer of body mods. Different strokes....
Sometimes I get the feeling on this forum that the left coasters think they are the only ones who know anything or who are qualifed to modify a TT. Unfortunatly we can't all have Steve Weiner work on our cars. The mods are only half the issue, how was the car driven, maintianed etc is also important. As you have been well advised, have the car fully checked out, maybe run some dyno tests/diagnostics and see if its really what its claimed to be. Most importantly, ask for ALL the documention of the work done (get it from Autothority if necessary) and take the guess work out of the decision.
Yes you can buy a pristine "stock" car and then spend a ton of $ doing all the same changes that a majority of the people on this list have done or want to do (turbos, fuel, ECU, cats, LWF, suspension etc) or you can reseach the specific car and make an educated, calculated decision on whether to purchase or not.
Good luck
11-17-2003, 06:52 PM
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I posted on Rennlist about this car Link to Germancarfans forum discussion on Autothority Stage III Car over a year ago, it was featured on the germancarfans.com website. I tried to correspond with the owner to get more details, but received no meaningful reply other than what was already listed on the website.
Link to Feature Article
Link to Feature Article
Last edited by John H. in DC Area; 11-17-2003 at 07:11 PM.
11-17-2003, 11:25 PM
#20
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50k will get you a pretty good GT2 motor from a reputable tuner. Some of the flak that Autothority took was due to there very aggressive ecu set up that put a lot of lead in the motor. You are not going to make over 540 hp with K24s unless you do some engine life shorting tuning like overspeeding the turbos and tooo much advance. At that level Porsche Motorsports puts in Carrillo rods. Unless you have some internal mods this motor will not live long a long and happy life $$$$.
11-19-2003, 07:21 PM
#21
I bought a 600HP 1990 C4.
At first I thought it was a disaster waiting to happen.
Turns out the car had the proper mods, with the previous owner spending about 50 grand aswell.
That envolved:
Full engine rebuild.
Lower compression to like 8.02
Turbo friendly pistons,
Corillo Connecting Rods
Flame Ringing
Headers
Dual Fuel Pumps
Dual Ignition boxes
Flywheel
Clutch
etc...
The car has had these mods for 5+ years with no issues except engine mounts...
I would bet that this car (like mine) has a high and low boost setting.
So most of the time the car runs at 1 bar or a tad less, and can be bumped up to the higher spec.
My advise: Talk to the owner if possible, talk to the builder, and speak with the fellows who built the kit.
Maybe stating the obvious, but you may be overlooking an great car! Or a lemon!
Good luck!
G
At first I thought it was a disaster waiting to happen.
Turns out the car had the proper mods, with the previous owner spending about 50 grand aswell.
That envolved:
Full engine rebuild.
Lower compression to like 8.02
Turbo friendly pistons,
Corillo Connecting Rods
Flame Ringing
Headers
Dual Fuel Pumps
Dual Ignition boxes
Flywheel
Clutch
etc...
The car has had these mods for 5+ years with no issues except engine mounts...
I would bet that this car (like mine) has a high and low boost setting.
So most of the time the car runs at 1 bar or a tad less, and can be bumped up to the higher spec.
My advise: Talk to the owner if possible, talk to the builder, and speak with the fellows who built the kit.
Maybe stating the obvious, but you may be overlooking an great car! Or a lemon!
Good luck!
G
11-20-2003, 06:54 AM
#23
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Originally posted by C4TT
I bought a 600HP 1990 C4.
At first I thought it was a disaster waiting to happen.
Turns out the car had the proper mods, with the previous owner spending about 50 grand aswell.
That envolved:
Full engine rebuild.
Lower compression to like 8.02
Turbo friendly pistons,
Corillo Connecting Rods
Flame Ringing
Headers
Dual Fuel Pumps
Dual Ignition boxes
Flywheel
Clutch
etc...
The car has had these mods for 5+ years with no issues except engine mounts...
I would bet that this car (like mine) has a high and low boost setting.
So most of the time the car runs at 1 bar or a tad less, and can be bumped up to the higher spec.
G
I bought a 600HP 1990 C4.
At first I thought it was a disaster waiting to happen.
Turns out the car had the proper mods, with the previous owner spending about 50 grand aswell.
That envolved:
Full engine rebuild.
Lower compression to like 8.02
Turbo friendly pistons,
Corillo Connecting Rods
Flame Ringing
Headers
Dual Fuel Pumps
Dual Ignition boxes
Flywheel
Clutch
etc...
The car has had these mods for 5+ years with no issues except engine mounts...
I would bet that this car (like mine) has a high and low boost setting.
So most of the time the car runs at 1 bar or a tad less, and can be bumped up to the higher spec.
G
Nice specification
What type of turbos are on your motor, and what sort of engine management/boost control. Do you have any dyno sheets ?
11-20-2003, 12:58 PM
#24
The turbos are Garrets which are from a few generations ago.. Or whichever where the best 5 years ago. The engine is managed by a motronic system, custom tuned on an engine dyno. Boost is controlled by Greddy...
No dyno sheets. In fact when I was at the Protosport shop, I asked if I could or should dyno the car. They said not to. ( Shady!)
Here is what they said:
They feel that firstly, you will never get an accurate reading from a chasey dyno, because of insufficient cooling and air flow.
The air that flows over the turbos, engine and intercooler at 100mph serves as a safety measure and induction. Dyno fans just aren't enough.
Besides they test everything and tune everything on their own engine dyno before dropping anything into a car.
Again I'm sure this stuff is obvious, but I trust them.
I was sceptical of the power, so I had a few pros test her out.
A nengineer/technician friend from Ferrari/Porsche/Maseratti tested it out in high boost on the highway.... He's had experience building 1000+hp drag string cars so I trust him...
His comments.... "Yup.. that's about 600hp. That type of thrust at rolling speeds really tells you what its got. "
With about 18psi.. the math makes sense too.
TB993tt... I still adore your car.... Even with the ticking timebomb wheels!
No dyno sheets. In fact when I was at the Protosport shop, I asked if I could or should dyno the car. They said not to. ( Shady!)
Here is what they said:
They feel that firstly, you will never get an accurate reading from a chasey dyno, because of insufficient cooling and air flow.
The air that flows over the turbos, engine and intercooler at 100mph serves as a safety measure and induction. Dyno fans just aren't enough.
Besides they test everything and tune everything on their own engine dyno before dropping anything into a car.
Again I'm sure this stuff is obvious, but I trust them.
I was sceptical of the power, so I had a few pros test her out.
A nengineer/technician friend from Ferrari/Porsche/Maseratti tested it out in high boost on the highway.... He's had experience building 1000+hp drag string cars so I trust him...
His comments.... "Yup.. that's about 600hp. That type of thrust at rolling speeds really tells you what its got. "
With about 18psi.. the math makes sense too.
TB993tt... I still adore your car.... Even with the ticking timebomb wheels!
11-20-2003, 01:31 PM
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C4TT
Thanks for the info. Isn't the engine dyno at Todd Knighton's place ? surely they will keep on file the dyno sheets of all the engines they have built ? I would check again, I bet it is on file somewhere
What they say about chasey (or even chassis
) dynos and lack of air flow is also valid for engine dynos, that is why the turbos and exhaust glow red to white hot on the engine rigs, but the better set up engine rigs can give a good blow through the intercooler.
Do you switch ECU maps when you switch from low to high boost ?
Thanks for the info. Isn't the engine dyno at Todd Knighton's place ? surely they will keep on file the dyno sheets of all the engines they have built ? I would check again, I bet it is on file somewhere
What they say about chasey (or even chassis
) dynos and lack of air flow is also valid for engine dynos, that is why the turbos and exhaust glow red to white hot on the engine rigs, but the better set up engine rigs can give a good blow through the intercooler.Do you switch ECU maps when you switch from low to high boost ?
11-20-2003, 03:47 PM
#26
Does the car switch maps? Great question... No. It runs the same map for both. So it's quite rich in low boost. The car is rather stinky.
Dyno wise:
Since they built my car, I believe they may have moved. Not sure where they tested my car but Todd Knighton could be correct for the dyno.
I wish I knew more, but everyone is so darn hush hush about the car! Protosport feels that they are liable if they reliquish too much info on a car...
Apparently some guys in the past have told the Protosport owners to "tear up any receipts" so that jealous wives wouldn't throw shet fits!!
I'm getting more and more info as time goes on.
Dyno wise:
Since they built my car, I believe they may have moved. Not sure where they tested my car but Todd Knighton could be correct for the dyno.
I wish I knew more, but everyone is so darn hush hush about the car! Protosport feels that they are liable if they reliquish too much info on a car...
Apparently some guys in the past have told the Protosport owners to "tear up any receipts" so that jealous wives wouldn't throw shet fits!!
I'm getting more and more info as time goes on.
Last edited by C4TT; 11-20-2003 at 07:58 PM.
11-20-2003, 10:36 PM
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I like seeing the dyno result. I got a before and after dyno run on my 993tt. Before 380hp rear wheels - After 500hp rear wheels.
During the dyno runs we ran a huge fan into the intercooler. I think the test was fairly accurate. 380hp rear wheel hp for an almost stock 993tt sounds pretty close.
I am going to make my way up to Philadelphia at some point to check out the dyno at AWE.
After my car hits 500hp at 4500-5000 rpms, the horsepower drops away to around 400hp rather quickly up to 7000 rpm. I'm not too happy about that and think it's an issue with the chip.
Dyno runs uncover issues like that. I don't trust seat of the pants horsepower estimates much. I don't care who it is.
It would be interesting to take a stock tt - put it on the dyno and then put your 600hp tt on right after it. It's not hard to get a very good idea of the power that is being put out using a method like that.
Mike Sobota
During the dyno runs we ran a huge fan into the intercooler. I think the test was fairly accurate. 380hp rear wheel hp for an almost stock 993tt sounds pretty close.
I am going to make my way up to Philadelphia at some point to check out the dyno at AWE.
After my car hits 500hp at 4500-5000 rpms, the horsepower drops away to around 400hp rather quickly up to 7000 rpm. I'm not too happy about that and think it's an issue with the chip.
Dyno runs uncover issues like that. I don't trust seat of the pants horsepower estimates much. I don't care who it is.
It would be interesting to take a stock tt - put it on the dyno and then put your 600hp tt on right after it. It's not hard to get a very good idea of the power that is being put out using a method like that.
Mike Sobota
11-21-2003, 06:20 AM
#28
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If your car is hitting 500RWHP - say 535FWHP @ 4500rpm, this is 624lb/ft or 850NM of torque at 4500rpm - this is rather a lot of torque
- especially for a single plug engine without flame rings or (I am guessing) strenghtened rods.
My guess would be that the heat generated by providing enough boost to generate that torque would make the ECU back right off - hence your lack of power higher up.
Personally I am sceptical of these chassis dyno torque figures (when compared to engine dyno generated torque figures) when you get past a certain level Circa650Nm - the dynos seem to go bonkers. Check out Mr PorschePhD who reckons he has 692lb/ft 941NM on just 1.2bar - something's amiss IMVHO.
If your car is hitting 500RWHP - say 535FWHP @ 4500rpm, this is 624lb/ft or 850NM of torque at 4500rpm - this is rather a lot of torque
- especially for a single plug engine without flame rings or (I am guessing) strenghtened rods.My guess would be that the heat generated by providing enough boost to generate that torque would make the ECU back right off - hence your lack of power higher up.
Personally I am sceptical of these chassis dyno torque figures (when compared to engine dyno generated torque figures) when you get past a certain level Circa650Nm - the dynos seem to go bonkers. Check out Mr PorschePhD who reckons he has 692lb/ft 941NM on just 1.2bar - something's amiss IMVHO.
11-21-2003, 10:47 AM
#29
I may have her dynoed for safety reasons more so than ego.. lol
But then again this weekend or next, we will be using a wide band 02 sensor to make sure the fuel curve is healthy in high boost.
All I know is that in high boost, I feel like I'm driving a 1976 le Mans style Porsche 1935 turbo, cause the power is just so raw after 4000rpms! Flames shooting out the back and all.. hehe
Not too much can keep up after that... I even surprised the hell out of a buddy in his tuned F40. He just gave up! Granted we never got a good run.
Maybe I need a yellow bird gear box so that I can take him up top too! LOL
(BTW - You guys are more active on this board than any of the 964 guys. Guess I'm a 993 guy at heart... soon enough)
But then again this weekend or next, we will be using a wide band 02 sensor to make sure the fuel curve is healthy in high boost.
All I know is that in high boost, I feel like I'm driving a 1976 le Mans style Porsche 1935 turbo, cause the power is just so raw after 4000rpms! Flames shooting out the back and all.. hehe
Not too much can keep up after that... I even surprised the hell out of a buddy in his tuned F40. He just gave up! Granted we never got a good run.
Maybe I need a yellow bird gear box so that I can take him up top too! LOL
(BTW - You guys are more active on this board than any of the 964 guys. Guess I'm a 993 guy at heart... soon enough
)
11-21-2003, 11:47 AM
#30
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Here is a link to my before and after dyno runs. The after indicates 500 RWHP at 5000 rpm and 525 ft lbs tq - The before shows 380 RWHP and 450 ft lbs tq.
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...93901165glhbnC
I am skeptical about precise hp and torque measured on dynos but we were able to use this dyno during the tuning process to assure that we were doing the right things. At one point, we installed a 5 bar regulator and the fuel was too rich - power hardly better than stock - went to the 3 bar stock regulator and the fuel mixture looked better and the power shot up.
380 RWHP seemed a fairly accurate reading for a stock 993tt with cleaned out cats and performance exhaust - maybe a bit high.
Is there a mathematical formula that you are using to determine the torque of a 560 FWHP engine?
Mike Sobota
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...93901165glhbnC
I am skeptical about precise hp and torque measured on dynos but we were able to use this dyno during the tuning process to assure that we were doing the right things. At one point, we installed a 5 bar regulator and the fuel was too rich - power hardly better than stock - went to the 3 bar stock regulator and the fuel mixture looked better and the power shot up.
380 RWHP seemed a fairly accurate reading for a stock 993tt with cleaned out cats and performance exhaust - maybe a bit high.
Is there a mathematical formula that you are using to determine the torque of a 560 FWHP engine?
Mike Sobota