Seeking advice from fellow Rennlisters
08-09-2014 | 10:24 PM
#16
Track Day
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
From: Ohio
Hmmm my car just came back after 1 year at a shop. I was told that 2-3 months and my car would be done.....now with that said I made the choice to take it to a Porsche Race Shop. They are highly skilled and knowledgable in racing and upgrading Porsche's. I knew that they kept a heavy racing season and that my car was not priority. In the end the car turned out great and I made some new friends.
Questions
Did your friend take it to a shop that deals mainly in Race cars or street cars?
Has your friend paid some of the bill or is he waiting until the car is finished to pay for the work? Reason I ask, if the shop is footing the bill upfront, they may be using other customers payment to pay for any parts or work done on your friends car.
Has the shop been ordering parts or has you friend been ordering parts?
Has your friend made any changes along the way that has resulted in delaying his car?
I ask these questions because sometimes we forget that we have had some fault to.
At this point your friend should sit with the owner and discuss delays and finalized a completed date. Emails sometime get lost in the junk file...the only way to handle this is in person with a pen and paper in hand.
I wish him luck..in the end, hopefully both parties will walk away happy.
Questions
Did your friend take it to a shop that deals mainly in Race cars or street cars?
Has your friend paid some of the bill or is he waiting until the car is finished to pay for the work? Reason I ask, if the shop is footing the bill upfront, they may be using other customers payment to pay for any parts or work done on your friends car.
Has the shop been ordering parts or has you friend been ordering parts?
Has your friend made any changes along the way that has resulted in delaying his car?
I ask these questions because sometimes we forget that we have had some fault to.
At this point your friend should sit with the owner and discuss delays and finalized a completed date. Emails sometime get lost in the junk file...the only way to handle this is in person with a pen and paper in hand.
I wish him luck..in the end, hopefully both parties will walk away happy.
-when I was told the car was done, I sent the remainder of the balance. I had no reason not to believe the car was done. MISTAKE.
-I did not provide any parts except for new seats, sliders and harnesses which were an extra. The car needed new brake lines which were also an extra but I did not provide the parts.
-I think I answered your last question.
08-09-2014 | 10:52 PM
#17
Track Day
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
From: Ohio
I think you changed the topic title - and my comments got blasted away - weird.
Here is what I wrote
--------------
Yes, facts are important since their is always two sides to each story - sometimes though one side's story in this case seems pretty crappy.
What exactly is being done, a 3.8 rebuild? With the proper parts in place, that is not much more work than a normal rebuild - even if other things are being done, 2 years is way way way over the top. It should take a few months tops for a pro shop.
Your friend needs to talk to the owner of the shop, and give them clear deadlines and the consequences of missing a deadline in a written document. He does not have to be an ****ole, but be firm, and if something is missed, take action! Negotiation with them, and get agreement, If they have excuses like "oh, we cannot trust our supplier" then that would be a BIG warning flag and I would pull the car.
One of the deadlines can be for instance that the engine long block is complete, or the engine is in the car - the final deadline, that the car is finished and can be picked up, if missed perhaps the consequence can be that a tow truck is showing up to remove the car, and no payment will be made for any parts, or another might be the lawsuit is launched.
I would hold-back money in this case because TT's can be tricky, and if they screwed up you need a lever. In once case, I had a car in the shop, 50 miles on a full "performance" rebuild on a TT, and one piston had a 25% leakdown - and the bill had been paid. I could not believe the mechanic was trying to convince me that it was "carbon" under the valve seat then the engine had 50 miles on it. Make sure there is a lever of some kind.
If not clear deadlines and possible financial penalties are put to them in writing the agreement is all verbal and always subject to interpretations. Both parties sign the document, this is key since they will then consider it serious and read the thing. If they don't want to sign, then I would remove the car, they are not being serious.
You have a few levers : One is money- no work done, no pay. The second is reputation: You will detail out the details of the work to be done and post them here on Rennlist. If they meet the dates, hurrah and they have recovered their reputation, if they miss, they are sunk.
I am not sure if its gone that serious yet, but come on, losing a car for two years is totally nuts. Even I am not that slow!
Cheers,
Mike
Here is what I wrote
--------------
Yes, facts are important since their is always two sides to each story - sometimes though one side's story in this case seems pretty crappy.
What exactly is being done, a 3.8 rebuild? With the proper parts in place, that is not much more work than a normal rebuild - even if other things are being done, 2 years is way way way over the top. It should take a few months tops for a pro shop.
Your friend needs to talk to the owner of the shop, and give them clear deadlines and the consequences of missing a deadline in a written document. He does not have to be an ****ole, but be firm, and if something is missed, take action! Negotiation with them, and get agreement, If they have excuses like "oh, we cannot trust our supplier" then that would be a BIG warning flag and I would pull the car.
One of the deadlines can be for instance that the engine long block is complete, or the engine is in the car - the final deadline, that the car is finished and can be picked up, if missed perhaps the consequence can be that a tow truck is showing up to remove the car, and no payment will be made for any parts, or another might be the lawsuit is launched.
I would hold-back money in this case because TT's can be tricky, and if they screwed up you need a lever. In once case, I had a car in the shop, 50 miles on a full "performance" rebuild on a TT, and one piston had a 25% leakdown - and the bill had been paid. I could not believe the mechanic was trying to convince me that it was "carbon" under the valve seat then the engine had 50 miles on it. Make sure there is a lever of some kind.
If not clear deadlines and possible financial penalties are put to them in writing the agreement is all verbal and always subject to interpretations. Both parties sign the document, this is key since they will then consider it serious and read the thing. If they don't want to sign, then I would remove the car, they are not being serious.
You have a few levers : One is money- no work done, no pay. The second is reputation: You will detail out the details of the work to be done and post them here on Rennlist. If they meet the dates, hurrah and they have recovered their reputation, if they miss, they are sunk.
I am not sure if its gone that serious yet, but come on, losing a car for two years is totally nuts. Even I am not that slow!
Cheers,
Mike
After contacting the shop this last Thursday and requesting a call back within 24 hrs and having to call Friday every hour on the hour until I finally got a call back, the latest issue was in fact a bad leak down on #6 cylinder. This is apparently attributable to a set of bad piston rings. All others were ok. So, in short, the motor is torn down again, for the third time. I was not made aware of this until last Friday. I would think I would have received a call as soon as this was found.
The second thing I suggested was having an agreement as far as the scope of work remaining, any refunds (I also paid for shipping so as to avoid tax and it would have been a quick ship so the rate was inflated) and a agreed upon concrete completion date. I suggested we both sign. I was shot down point blank.
Later Friday, as a sign of good faith on the shops behalf, I requested half of the final payment back. This would be returned upon completion. The payment issue is a huge sticking point. I now believe the car was NEVER ready to leave. I don't think this will happen but it would certainly restore a little faith in his word.
08-10-2014 | 12:15 AM
#18
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 13,005
Likes: 17
From: KC ex pat marooned in NY
Classic race car shop, put it on the back burner routine. It can be frustrating, I once had a car in a race shop in kc, every banged up circle track car bumped it to the back. You have to be extremely assertive with these guys, make unannounced visits, be a pia, may not need a lawyer yet, but be ready. Generally double or triple any time estimates you're given. Never give more than a 50% deposit up front. GL
C
C
08-12-2014 | 11:26 AM
#20
Three Wheelin'
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,432
Likes: 9
My car was in the shop for 2+ years at a shop in NY for a motor rebuild as well. I got lots of excuses, failed promises & lies. It pained me to be nice to the owner. I was kept in the dark about skyrocketing labor and parts bills and missed 3 seasons of driving it. I feel your pain. I finally told the the guy, "Box up everything that isnt on the car and I'm coming to get it next weekend & I am having someone I can trust finish the job properly." Somehow he was able to get it all together and get it running within a week of that phone call. Since retreiving a car I hoped to be finished, I had to sort out a fuel stave issue by DIY'ing new injectors, Fuel Pump, Filter, programming and wastegate adjustments to get everything working which is not what I wanted to be doing after paying an additional 10g on top of the original build estimate.
08-12-2014 | 01:40 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,329
Likes: 59
From: New Jersey
-mainly high performance street. In other words, they have supposedly done these numerous times.
-when I was told the car was done, I sent the remainder of the balance. I had no reason not to believe the car was done. MISTAKE.
-I did not provide any parts except for new seats, sliders and harnesses which were an extra. The car needed new brake lines which were also an extra but I did not provide the parts.
-I think I answered your last question.
-when I was told the car was done, I sent the remainder of the balance. I had no reason not to believe the car was done. MISTAKE.
-I did not provide any parts except for new seats, sliders and harnesses which were an extra. The car needed new brake lines which were also an extra but I did not provide the parts.
-I think I answered your last question.
Fwiw I had a 3.2 Carrera many moons ago that was at a paint shop for over a year. In the end I retrieved my car with law enforcement in tow. The owner of the shop was upset, I gave him enough chances to complete the car..he didn't. I found another shop to complete the work within a couple of weeks. I took it as a well lesson learned...one hopefully to never repeat. Trust me when I say I feel your pain...I wish you nothing but best in resolving the issue.
08-12-2014 | 09:19 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,320
Likes: 266
I feel your pain too. Sent my car 1200 miles away to a very reputable shop for an oil leak fix and a year later still not fixed.
Luckily I was able to get the car back but lost thousands in the process.
Lesson learnt:
Find a shop at a drivable distance where you can keep an eye on the progress.
Never pay the whole amount prior to picking up the car as there's only 3 months grace period for any CC charge back.
Always have in writing about the completion date though we never implement it.
Anyway, i wish you all the best in resolving this issue especially getting the car back in one piece.
Luckily I was able to get the car back but lost thousands in the process.
Lesson learnt:
Find a shop at a drivable distance where you can keep an eye on the progress.
Never pay the whole amount prior to picking up the car as there's only 3 months grace period for any CC charge back.
Always have in writing about the completion date though we never implement it.
Anyway, i wish you all the best in resolving this issue especially getting the car back in one piece.
Last edited by C2 Turbo; 08-12-2014 at 10:32 PM.
08-14-2014 | 02:10 AM
#23
Race Car
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,694
Likes: 67
From: Miamah, La Florida
Even the best shops fall apart. Bad record keeping, long delays, inaccurate billing have been points I've had to deal with. Another bit of advice is to always receive an invoice for the work performed, when performed and NEVER pay cash. I lost a great shop that I dealt with for 7 years for half a dozen cars due to the above mentioned headaches.