LAT

I have often wondered what times one of our cars would post today.

If it were set up with new suspension, Bilstein, KW etc., 520+ Hp, 750+ Nm, the latest DOT tires and driven by Walter Röhrl or some other very capable driver.[I]

Some Facts

993TT
In 1997 a 430 HP factory version of the 993TT lapped it in 8:12


Compare
In 2000 the 420 HP 996TT lapped it in 7:56

In 2006 the 480 HP 997TT lapped it in 7:38

LAT

Let me rephrase the question, would a modded 993TT keep up to a stock 997TT with equally competent drivers.

TT Surgeon

No telling, but prolly close to the 7:40 range.

DM993tt

it isnt hard to set up & modify a 993tt to run circles around a stock 997tt car, it just costs $$

Jean

Levino,

The Gemballa 550PS did in 1995 a Nurburgring lap in 7.52s by S. Auto test driver Horst Von Sauma (he is not very far from Walter's times).

The next fastest lap (record back then) in a street 993 was made in 1999 by the same driver, with a time of 7:46.. Keep in mind the following...the car had (very debatable) 652PS@7050RPM and 812NM@4950RPM, Sportec ECU reported to be boosting 1.2 Bar and was a 993GT2 (RS with GT2 bodywork)prepared with Billstein racing suspension with upgraded anti-roll bars, monoball, custom (just the last 3 gears) reinforced gearing, 1270 Kgs (~2,800 lbs )... So it was quite heavily modified. Tires were Dunlop SP9000 245/40 and 285/35..

Keeping in mind the above, adding R compound tires might give you around 5-7secs better lap times..

All the above were done on the 20.8kms configuration.

JG 996T

Modified 993 v. modified 997s - not at the 'ring, but:

TB993tt

I have the Sport Auto Supertest of the Lotec (TTP) 600PS (claimed but with TTP intercooler so probably more like real 520PS) 4WD full weight standard 993tt bodywork with slightly wider wheels. I can't get hold of it just now but seem to remember it was close to the 8 minute mark.

LAT

Jean; if we have more power than the stock 997TT, say 520 hp vs 480 hp, same weight roughly 1,500 kg, same tires and better suspension, aftermarket vs stock, should our cars not equal or better the 7:38 time of the stock cars?
I understand the new engines have a broader power band but that should only count in 1st gear, no?
Is it chassis stifness that allows better control?

Toby; if you find the article can you scan and post.
The time was 7:57 @ 155.47 kph
[url]http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?fID=0&gID=3&tID=10073&viewThread=y[/url

Dave; it costs less overall vs the 997tt which is still falling like a rock.

Basal Skull

I wonder about this too.

I wouldn't trade my car for any of the newer beasts and not a 997tt but...

My friends new 2010 gt3rs weighs exactly the same as my car (down to the pound! 3174lbs with 1/2 tank - what a coincidence), and has similar hp (450 rs - mine? 450-480?(umw stage2), motons, gt2 uprights, trg sways etc.). Pretty similar speeds/times on the track/similar abilities - but he can be out on an open day on a tight track for 1.5 hours and both he and his car appear pretty fresh, while me and my car are tired and have to come off the track after 45mins.

When I drove his car, it reminded me of my 993tt more than other 911's I've driven/felt very similar.

So to answer you question, I think the modded 993tt can keep up, but the newer cars are easier to drive for some reason.

930man

Having owned a 996 TT , 997tt , 996gt2, 997gt2 and now my first 993...
The 996 GT2 felt great with quite a few suspesion mods.. But this 993 feels so compliant. So light on the front end.. The gt2 was quite nimble.. The 997 were sluggish,, numb.. Boring..no matter what you did the computer overrode you.. I will put money on it I could get sound the track faster in a 993 than a 996 or 997.....

And funny in the article they liked the 993...

I do miss my 996gt2

malcolmd

Without having the same driver in both cars, these comparisions are always difficult.
I regularly track my car against a 996tt, and two series one 997tts. The 996tt runs on Hoosier twin groove semi slicks and is modified - "500HP". The 997s are stock, run on R Comp Street Tyres although one is light by virtue of having most of the interior trim, and rear seats removed. My car is a UMW Stage 2 with stock bars/uprights/suspension other than PSS-9s and I run on R Comps like the 997s. My car wieghs 1420kg without fuel and driver and I guess 460HP.
It goes like this: The lighter 997tt is about 2 seconds a minute faster than me, the 996tt and the stock 997 are on a par at 1.5 seconds per minute faster. They all accelerate very marginally faster than me - a car length in a straight, brake no better than me, but all carry considerable more corner speed than I manage - which is where I think the real difference lies. I'm moving to Hoosier twin grooves and will see if I can catch the 996tt!
Clearly it just might be that they drive better then me - but there you have my observations.

DM993tt

Only thing I have found quicker than me during DE's are cup cars. I drive in PCA advanced and instructor groups. I have a Manthey Racing Tuned ECU good for ~500. I catch people in the turns and loose em on the straights. That said I haven't done any legitimate racing with my car as it does not class well in any PCA groups, nor do I want to drive it in competitive race conditions. That is what my 68 911 is for.

Wonder how THIS would do at the ring tho

Jean

Levino,

There are a number of things that make the 997TT faster than the 993TT, there is no way I could know them all but here are a few that I know have a direct impact, most of these are chassis related, then of course you have the engine output:

All else being equal (tires, suspension components) lateral mass transfer and therefore cornering Gs are a function of track width, weight and CG height..

Track width both front and rear: 997TT is 3% wider
Height the 997TT is about 1% lower
Weight is similar, most likely CG is lower on the 997TT

Braking is directly impacted by height, weight and wheelbase..
Wheelbase is 3% longer on the 997TT so less mass transfer on braking..

Downforce is much better on the 997TT => Better handling.

Chassis stiffness, I would not be surprised if the 997TT is 50% stiffer or more, I dont have the data handy.

Lateral G forces on a 997TT reach 1.3Gs where the 993TT reaches hardly 1.1 Gs on the same track, this gives you higher transcient and exit speeds, multiply that by a number of turns, and the reduction in time becomes very substantial.

Also, a track of this length has a direct impact on gearbox and engine heat and performance will drop as components become hot after a few kms of fast driving.

The 997TT is by far a better car on the track, liking or disliking it and the way it handles is a separate subject

LAT

Jean

I guess one has to accept that engineering moves forward.
Thank you for the explanation, interesting and beneficial.

dbf73

tire performance has changed so radically over the years that a real comparison requires the same (compound and construction but not size) tires