Air-to-Water Intercoolers?
07-06-2007, 02:07 AM
#16
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Reliability issues?? Can you expand on it...
I have a rather elaborate custom twin pump setup that was created for me by Richard (the owner of ERL Aquamist). Again.. Not cheap, but you get what you pay for. Here are a couple of shots of my setup...
I have a rather elaborate custom twin pump setup that was created for me by Richard (the owner of ERL Aquamist). Again.. Not cheap, but you get what you pay for. Here are a couple of shots of my setup...
Originally Posted by JJayB
I've done water injection in another project (944 turbo) and it has reliability issues.
07-06-2007, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by vrus
Reliability issues?? Can you expand on it...
I have a rather elaborate custom twin pump setup that was created for me by Richard (the owner of ERL Aquamist). Again.. Not cheap, but you get what you pay for. Here are a couple of shots of my setup...
I have a rather elaborate custom twin pump setup that was created for me by Richard (the owner of ERL Aquamist). Again.. Not cheap, but you get what you pay for. Here are a couple of shots of my setup...
This was back in the late 80's in a very competive racing enviornment. I have to say we pushed the rules kinda like Nascar, except we never got caught. We had a five gallon tank in the rear spare tire well. We didn't have access to the micro processors that are available today.
The problem is regulating the amount of water we injected into the intake manifold over a 30 minute race. Boost was our only parameter and we kinda guessed on the amount of spray. We found that injecting it in front of the throttle body caused all kinds of problems. So we changed it. I'm sure with the NO2 there are all kinds of hardware we didn't have back then, but I still think its still guessing as to the amount of H2O your putting into the motor. We ran until a line ruptured causing us to spin while leading a race. That was it for me.
07-06-2007, 05:40 AM
#18
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vrus
I guess you were on your "sabbatical" when this was discussed:
RS Tuning commissioned Secan (the manufacturers of the original Porsche Motorsport EVO front to back intercooler) to produce a run of cores for use in the 996tt. Whilst they were at it (and after some annoying persistant clients
) they had some made to fit the stock MAF 993tt intercooler position.
The pic below shows that they look somewhat standard but are a little fatter.
The claims were that the cores are 12% more efficient per unit area than the old Secan cores and that the intake was kept within 25DegC of ambient (old Secan was 20DegC from memory)
I have run these for a while now and watched intakes using the Andial gauge and also the actual intakes using the Hammer and this unit is simply incredible.....
My engine set up starts reducing timing at 37.5DegC intake so if the intake temp can be kept below this number I will always be getting the maximum power available out of the motor. To date I have only seen it getting above this twice and that was in 28DegC ambient at the very top of the rev range and only momentarily...
This intercooler is overkill for a road car and I have every intention (should I sell the car) of doing a special deal so JJay can actually put it to good use on the track
New price around $16K US
I guess you were on your "sabbatical" when this was discussed:
RS Tuning commissioned Secan (the manufacturers of the original Porsche Motorsport EVO front to back intercooler) to produce a run of cores for use in the 996tt. Whilst they were at it (and after some annoying persistant clients
) they had some made to fit the stock MAF 993tt intercooler position.The pic below shows that they look somewhat standard but are a little fatter.
The claims were that the cores are 12% more efficient per unit area than the old Secan cores and that the intake was kept within 25DegC of ambient (old Secan was 20DegC from memory)
I have run these for a while now and watched intakes using the Andial gauge and also the actual intakes using the Hammer and this unit is simply incredible.....
My engine set up starts reducing timing at 37.5DegC intake so if the intake temp can be kept below this number I will always be getting the maximum power available out of the motor. To date I have only seen it getting above this twice and that was in 28DegC ambient at the very top of the rev range and only momentarily...
This intercooler is overkill for a road car and I have every intention (should I sell the car) of doing a special deal so JJay can actually put it to good use on the track
New price around $16K US
07-06-2007, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by sweanders
16000 usd for an intercooler?
Wow, I wish I had a customer bas for products like that. I wonder how many they have to sell to cover det R/D..
Wow, I wish I had a customer bas for products like that. I wonder how many they have to sell to cover det R/D..
07-06-2007, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by JJayB
My system was boost activated at .7 bars and adjustable. It was designed by an someone very accomplished with porsches and also an electrical engineer.
This was back in the late 80's in a very competive racing enviornment. I have to say we pushed the rules kinda like Nascar, except we never got caught. We had a five gallon tank in the rear spare tire well. We didn't have access to the micro processors that are available today.
The problem is regulating the amount of water we injected into the intake manifold over a 30 minute race. Boost was our only parameter and we kinda guessed on the amount of spray. We found that injecting it in front of the throttle body caused all kinds of problems. So we changed it. I'm sure with the NO2 there are all kinds of hardware we didn't have back then, but I still think its still guessing as to the amount of H2O your putting into the motor. We ran until a line ruptured causing us to spin while leading a race. That was it for me.
This was back in the late 80's in a very competive racing enviornment. I have to say we pushed the rules kinda like Nascar, except we never got caught. We had a five gallon tank in the rear spare tire well. We didn't have access to the micro processors that are available today.
The problem is regulating the amount of water we injected into the intake manifold over a 30 minute race. Boost was our only parameter and we kinda guessed on the amount of spray. We found that injecting it in front of the throttle body caused all kinds of problems. So we changed it. I'm sure with the NO2 there are all kinds of hardware we didn't have back then, but I still think its still guessing as to the amount of H2O your putting into the motor. We ran until a line ruptured causing us to spin while leading a race. That was it for me.
07-06-2007, 12:20 PM
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Yeow... $16K is what they charge for an intercooler???
The intercooler I am reviewing right now shows +1psi boost @ the TB gained over stock.. It also showed a 10C drop in temp reading over stock @ the TB.
I have a dual temp gauge made by Davtron (which is the company that makes it for Andial).. It has 2 leads on it that need to be fitted.. did you weld the bungs to the intercooler or did you somehow thread them in??
The intercooler I am reviewing right now shows +1psi boost @ the TB gained over stock.. It also showed a 10C drop in temp reading over stock @ the TB.
I have a dual temp gauge made by Davtron (which is the company that makes it for Andial).. It has 2 leads on it that need to be fitted.. did you weld the bungs to the intercooler or did you somehow thread them in??
Originally Posted by TB993tt
vrus
I guess you were on your "sabbatical" when this was discussed:
RS Tuning commissioned Secan (the manufacturers of the original Porsche Motorsport EVO front to back intercooler) to produce a run of cores for use in the 996tt. Whilst they were at it (and after some annoying persistant clients ) they had some made to fit the stock MAF 993tt intercooler position.
The pic below shows that they look somewhat standard but are a little fatter.
The claims were that the cores are 12% more efficient per unit area than the old Secan cores and that the intake was kept within 25DegC of ambient (old Secan was 20DegC from memory)
I have run these for a while now and watched intakes using the Andial gauge and also the actual intakes using the Hammer and this unit is simply incredible.....
My engine set up starts reducing timing at 37.5DegC intake so if the intake temp can be kept below this number I will always be getting the maximum power available out of the motor. To date I have only seen it getting above this twice and that was in 28DegC ambient at the very top of the rev range and only momentarily...
This intercooler is overkill for a road car and I have every intention (should I sell the car) of doing a special deal so JJay can actually put it to good use on the track
New price around $16K US
I guess you were on your "sabbatical" when this was discussed:
RS Tuning commissioned Secan (the manufacturers of the original Porsche Motorsport EVO front to back intercooler) to produce a run of cores for use in the 996tt. Whilst they were at it (and after some annoying persistant clients
) they had some made to fit the stock MAF 993tt intercooler position.The pic below shows that they look somewhat standard but are a little fatter.
The claims were that the cores are 12% more efficient per unit area than the old Secan cores and that the intake was kept within 25DegC of ambient (old Secan was 20DegC from memory)
I have run these for a while now and watched intakes using the Andial gauge and also the actual intakes using the Hammer and this unit is simply incredible.....
My engine set up starts reducing timing at 37.5DegC intake so if the intake temp can be kept below this number I will always be getting the maximum power available out of the motor. To date I have only seen it getting above this twice and that was in 28DegC ambient at the very top of the rev range and only momentarily...
This intercooler is overkill for a road car and I have every intention (should I sell the car) of doing a special deal so JJay can actually put it to good use on the track
New price around $16K US
07-06-2007, 09:36 PM
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Does yours look like this? Sorry for the poor quality.. my carry camera was acting up...
Mine don't seem to have threads...
Mine don't seem to have threads...
Originally Posted by TB993tt
vrus
Threaded them in.
Cost a lot but in my long search, the only cores that actually work better than stock...................
Threaded them in.
Cost a lot but in my long search, the only cores that actually work better than stock...................
07-06-2007, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by vrus
Yes.. Good point. I did think of that also. I will place a few thermocouplers in the engine bay and take some temp readings while driving.
If heat soak becomes a problem, a thermal break can be placed between the intercooler & the engine to keep radiant heat away from it.
I also have access to a patented process which coats heat exchangers and provides a 25 - 30% increase in heat dissipation efficiency. Its not cheap to do, but it works. It is used in the aerospace industry and now being used in the automotive sector. Alot of endurance race teams coat their rads & heat exchangers with this stuff.
I've used this on my E55 and it does help. IAT measurements did go down after my heat exchanger was coated.
If heat soak becomes a problem, a thermal break can be placed between the intercooler & the engine to keep radiant heat away from it.
I also have access to a patented process which coats heat exchangers and provides a 25 - 30% increase in heat dissipation efficiency. Its not cheap to do, but it works. It is used in the aerospace industry and now being used in the automotive sector. Alot of endurance race teams coat their rads & heat exchangers with this stuff.
I've used this on my E55 and it does help. IAT measurements did go down after my heat exchanger was coated.
07-07-2007, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by vrus
Does yours look like this? Sorry for the poor quality.. my carry camera was acting up...
Mine don't seem to have threads...
Mine don't seem to have threads...
07-07-2007, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by vrus
..The intercooler I am reviewing right now shows +1psi boost @ the TB gained over stock.. It also showed a 10C drop in temp reading over stock @ the TB..
07-09-2007, 12:23 PM
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I dont know what else I can say about it... The final coating is a matte black colour and costs roughly $400 - $500 for something the size of an intercooler.
I am not familiar with the heat dispersement coatings that Swain offers but I do know that this particular coating does work.. I've done this to various parts on Mercedes Benz and it works as advertised.
I'll show some pics of the procedure once my intercooler arrives.
I am not familiar with the heat dispersement coatings that Swain offers but I do know that this particular coating does work.. I've done this to various parts on Mercedes Benz and it works as advertised.
I'll show some pics of the procedure once my intercooler arrives.
Originally Posted by pole position
Could you be more specific about the coatings for IC's, heat exchangers etc . Swain offers coatings for these applications as well, is it different ?
07-09-2007, 12:28 PM
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Thanks.. I was trying to figure out the best way to mount the probes that is also easily reversible..
I will pass along more information once I've had a chance to test it myself.. No sense in 2 people spending money on something until we know it works.
I will have it in my possession soon and will immediately do some datalogging.
Oh.. If it works, they can be bought for under $4,000USD.
Originally Posted by TB993tt
My gauge is like that although I can't remember whether it has threads - I would think it is the same as yours unless Andial did different versions ? Mine may be glued in ?
I will have it in my possession soon and will immediately do some datalogging.
Oh.. If it works, they can be bought for under $4,000USD.
Originally Posted by js-911
I have been searching also reasonable priced good IC to replace my stock one. Could you tell more about your massive IC like where to get, how much etc. Write PM or email if that is too much offtopic. Thanks!
05-10-2008, 05:43 PM
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