993TT Upgrades
11-20-2002, 05:05 PM
#16
[quote]Originally posted by themarsman:
<strong>
Too bad about your seats, do you know where I can see some pictures of the GT3 seats?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Here are some pictures from <a href="http://www.carnewal.com" target="_blank">www.carnewal.com</a>
And from <a href="http://www.schatzmotorsport.com" target="_blank">www.schatzmotorsport.com</a>
Jeff
<strong>
Too bad about your seats, do you know where I can see some pictures of the GT3 seats?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Here are some pictures from <a href="http://www.carnewal.com" target="_blank">www.carnewal.com</a>
And from <a href="http://www.schatzmotorsport.com" target="_blank">www.schatzmotorsport.com</a>
Jeff
11-21-2002, 06:05 AM
#17
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[quote]Originally posted by TB993tt:
<strong>themarsman
Differences between 993tt and Carrera 3.6 engines - An experienced shop would be able to tell you. In his book, Paul Frere lists the main differences as follows:
conrods reinforced at crank end, piston intrusion by 5mm to reduce head gasket strainair circulation between the cylinder fins is optimised by reduced fin thickness, exhaust valves are hollow and cooled by natrium (??), cooling fan is driven at 1.8 times crank speed (instead of 1.6).
I don't understand how on the lowest boost setting the motor will produce more torque at 2500rpm than at the highest setting - all other parameters remaining the same, why should the lower boost setting get going quicker than the higher boost setting ?? Could be unreliable dyno figures at low revs ?
That kick in the back will be big <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
TB993tt,
Thanks for the explanation on the engine differences, I talked to David at Powerhaus about the engine and it is a 3.6 N/A motor. He assured me that everything inside the engine has been upgraded and that the engine is using an external scavenger pump that is able to move 4 times as much fluid as the stock one.
I believe the reason that the lower boost settings provide more torque is that the timing isn't retarded on the lower settings. They are running -2 degrees of timing on the higher boost settings. I have seen several pulls from the dyno and each one seems very consistant so I don't believe it is error in the dyno. In my experience engine dynos are normally more accurate than chassis dyno's.
I can't wait to drive this car and feel that "kick in the back"
<strong>themarsman
Differences between 993tt and Carrera 3.6 engines - An experienced shop would be able to tell you. In his book, Paul Frere lists the main differences as follows:
conrods reinforced at crank end, piston intrusion by 5mm to reduce head gasket strainair circulation between the cylinder fins is optimised by reduced fin thickness, exhaust valves are hollow and cooled by natrium (??), cooling fan is driven at 1.8 times crank speed (instead of 1.6).
I don't understand how on the lowest boost setting the motor will produce more torque at 2500rpm than at the highest setting - all other parameters remaining the same, why should the lower boost setting get going quicker than the higher boost setting ?? Could be unreliable dyno figures at low revs ?
That kick in the back will be big <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
TB993tt,
Thanks for the explanation on the engine differences, I talked to David at Powerhaus about the engine and it is a 3.6 N/A motor. He assured me that everything inside the engine has been upgraded and that the engine is using an external scavenger pump that is able to move 4 times as much fluid as the stock one.
I believe the reason that the lower boost settings provide more torque is that the timing isn't retarded on the lower settings. They are running -2 degrees of timing on the higher boost settings. I have seen several pulls from the dyno and each one seems very consistant so I don't believe it is error in the dyno. In my experience engine dynos are normally more accurate than chassis dyno's.
I can't wait to drive this car and feel that "kick in the back"
11-21-2002, 06:19 AM
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Jeff,
Thanks for the pictures! I think I still like the sport seats better though, the GT3 seats are a little too outragous for my tastes.
Let me know if you ever want to sell your seats or if you know anyone else interested in letting go of a pair of classic gray sports seats.
John
Thanks for the pictures! I think I still like the sport seats better though, the GT3 seats are a little too outragous for my tastes.
Let me know if you ever want to sell your seats or if you know anyone else interested in letting go of a pair of classic gray sports seats.
John
11-21-2002, 06:25 AM
#19
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[quote]Originally posted by PorschePhD:
<strong>There are difference in the case as the oil sump on a 993 case has an opening on the face with the turbo sump in the motor mount. It is a bored hole that can easily be opened. The heads and cylinders are also situated so that the sealing surface is below the main compression strike, thus helping out with leakage from boost. The crank in a 964 is far different from the 993 in regard to one is tapered and never balanced, hence the huge dampener pulley and the other is true. Rods are different. There are some integrity difference between the two. When we can we use a 993 base plant and build on that. Other small issues as valves, fan, PS pump, mounts, etc are slightly different.</strong><hr></blockquote>
PorschePhD,
Wow you know your stuff! The crank on my motor has been replaced so I am not too worried about that, they also are going with an external scavenger pump that moves more fluid than stock. They also put in some extra rings to seal the combustion in the cylinder, so hopefully that won't be a problem. I am worried about your statement that there are some integrity differences between the two as I certainly want this to be an engine that will last me for a while. I wish I would of asked these question earlier as I might of went the route of upgrading my current engine rather than swapping to an older block.
Thanks!
<strong>There are difference in the case as the oil sump on a 993 case has an opening on the face with the turbo sump in the motor mount. It is a bored hole that can easily be opened. The heads and cylinders are also situated so that the sealing surface is below the main compression strike, thus helping out with leakage from boost. The crank in a 964 is far different from the 993 in regard to one is tapered and never balanced, hence the huge dampener pulley and the other is true. Rods are different. There are some integrity difference between the two. When we can we use a 993 base plant and build on that. Other small issues as valves, fan, PS pump, mounts, etc are slightly different.</strong><hr></blockquote>
PorschePhD,
Wow you know your stuff! The crank on my motor has been replaced so I am not too worried about that, they also are going with an external scavenger pump that moves more fluid than stock. They also put in some extra rings to seal the combustion in the cylinder, so hopefully that won't be a problem. I am worried about your statement that there are some integrity differences between the two as I certainly want this to be an engine that will last me for a while. I wish I would of asked these question earlier as I might of went the route of upgrading my current engine rather than swapping to an older block.
Thanks!
11-21-2002, 07:00 AM
#20
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themarsman wrote:
I believe the reason that the lower boost settings provide more torque is that the timing isn't retarded on the lower settings. They are running -2 degrees of timing on the higher boost settings
To me this shows one of the big advances in engine management systems. The Bosch Motronic M5.2 will let the timing and boost vary according to the onset of knock - this can give a much better bottom end (ie before peak torque) also when you punch the throttle in the mid range (say 4500rpm) the system will allow a momentary overboost (on my car usually around 1.3bar for about 2 seconds) until the knock is sensed then back to safer limits this translates into a sharper throttle response and more initial torque. The downside to this is that the extra heat generated by all the extra boost will translate into a limit of how much boost can be used higher up the rev range and therefore limit maximum power - On your motor it sounds like the each set boost map has been predetermined on the dyno with the higher boost maps giving you that big top end power figure, so I guess you may be sacrificing some low end flexibilty and throttle response to get those big numbers up top.
I believe the reason that the lower boost settings provide more torque is that the timing isn't retarded on the lower settings. They are running -2 degrees of timing on the higher boost settings
To me this shows one of the big advances in engine management systems. The Bosch Motronic M5.2 will let the timing and boost vary according to the onset of knock - this can give a much better bottom end (ie before peak torque) also when you punch the throttle in the mid range (say 4500rpm) the system will allow a momentary overboost (on my car usually around 1.3bar for about 2 seconds) until the knock is sensed then back to safer limits this translates into a sharper throttle response and more initial torque. The downside to this is that the extra heat generated by all the extra boost will translate into a limit of how much boost can be used higher up the rev range and therefore limit maximum power - On your motor it sounds like the each set boost map has been predetermined on the dyno with the higher boost maps giving you that big top end power figure, so I guess you may be sacrificing some low end flexibilty and throttle response to get those big numbers up top.
11-21-2002, 07:14 AM
#21
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[quote]Originally posted by TB993tt:
<strong>themarsman wrote:
I believe the reason that the lower boost settings provide more torque is that the timing isn't retarded on the lower settings. They are running -2 degrees of timing on the higher boost settings
To me this shows one of the big advances in engine management systems. The Bosch Motronic M5.2 will let the timing and boost vary according to the onset of knock - this can give a much better bottom end (ie before peak torque) also when you punch the throttle in the mid range (say 4500rpm) the system will allow a momentary overboost (on my car usually around 1.3bar for about 2 seconds) until the knock is sensed then back to safer limits this translates into a sharper throttle response and more initial torque. The downside to this is that the extra heat generated by all the extra boost will translate into a limit of how much boost can be used higher up the rev range and therefore limit maximum power - On your motor it sounds like the each set boost map has been predetermined on the dyno with the higher boost maps giving you that big top end power figure, so I guess you may be sacrificing some low end flexibilty and throttle response to get those big numbers up top.</strong><hr></blockquote>
TB993tt,
I agree, it sounds like your system provides better functionality and also so extra safety if it can detect knocking and back off the boost. My system requires me to make sure that I don't run the higher boost with fuel that will call detonation. I am thinking that for normal driving setting three with 1.0 bar of boost and not adjusting the timing will be the best. When I take it to the track and put in racing fuel I will see if the extra boost with the timing retarded helps much at all.
Thanks,
John Mars (themarsman)
<strong>themarsman wrote:
I believe the reason that the lower boost settings provide more torque is that the timing isn't retarded on the lower settings. They are running -2 degrees of timing on the higher boost settings
To me this shows one of the big advances in engine management systems. The Bosch Motronic M5.2 will let the timing and boost vary according to the onset of knock - this can give a much better bottom end (ie before peak torque) also when you punch the throttle in the mid range (say 4500rpm) the system will allow a momentary overboost (on my car usually around 1.3bar for about 2 seconds) until the knock is sensed then back to safer limits this translates into a sharper throttle response and more initial torque. The downside to this is that the extra heat generated by all the extra boost will translate into a limit of how much boost can be used higher up the rev range and therefore limit maximum power - On your motor it sounds like the each set boost map has been predetermined on the dyno with the higher boost maps giving you that big top end power figure, so I guess you may be sacrificing some low end flexibilty and throttle response to get those big numbers up top.</strong><hr></blockquote>
TB993tt,
I agree, it sounds like your system provides better functionality and also so extra safety if it can detect knocking and back off the boost. My system requires me to make sure that I don't run the higher boost with fuel that will call detonation. I am thinking that for normal driving setting three with 1.0 bar of boost and not adjusting the timing will be the best. When I take it to the track and put in racing fuel I will see if the extra boost with the timing retarded helps much at all.
Thanks,
John Mars (themarsman)
11-21-2002, 10:21 AM
#23
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John,
I have just a little experience with modifying and building custom TT motors
I wouldn't sweat the difference to much. It sounds like they have a handle on the situation. PH has a fair reputation and should do a fine job. Now as far as lasting as long as it can, well anytime you add big HP you give up life. Just a simple fact, HP creates heat and wear and in time that turns to failure. How long you say? Well, I build a custom twin for myself a couple of years ago. When the boost was pushed it could see over 700 as well BUT the question was how long. I figure I would be lucky at 20K miles as I use the cars. My recent moded Twin, 50K miles. Unfortunately these big motors cannot be as reliable as the stock versions.
I have just a little experience with modifying and building custom TT motors
I wouldn't sweat the difference to much. It sounds like they have a handle on the situation. PH has a fair reputation and should do a fine job. Now as far as lasting as long as it can, well anytime you add big HP you give up life. Just a simple fact, HP creates heat and wear and in time that turns to failure. How long you say? Well, I build a custom twin for myself a couple of years ago. When the boost was pushed it could see over 700 as well BUT the question was how long. I figure I would be lucky at 20K miles as I use the cars. My recent moded Twin, 50K miles. Unfortunately these big motors cannot be as reliable as the stock versions.
11-21-2002, 01:34 PM
#24
[quote]Originally posted by steve R1100S:
<strong>Why can i view the pictures of the GT3 seats, but the sport seat pictures show up as empty boxes?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry Steve... I've been in the process of updating my photo album software. I've updated the links above.
Jeff
<strong>Why can i view the pictures of the GT3 seats, but the sport seat pictures show up as empty boxes?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry Steve... I've been in the process of updating my photo album software. I've updated the links above.
Jeff
11-26-2002, 03:01 PM
#26
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[quote]Originally posted by PorschePhD:
<strong>There are difference in the case as the oil sump on a 993 case has an opening on the face with the turbo sump in the motor mount. It is a bored hole that can easily be opened. The heads and cylinders are also situated so that the sealing surface is below the main compression strike, thus helping out with leakage from boost. The crank in a 964 is far different from the 993 in regard to one is tapered and never balanced, hence the huge dampener pulley and the other is true. Rods are different. There are some integrity difference between the two. When we can we use a 993 base plant and build on that. Other small issues as valves, fan, PS pump, mounts, etc are slightly different.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I found out the engine is a 993 N/A block, it isn't a 964 so hopefully with the internal modifications it will do well with all of the added power.
<strong>There are difference in the case as the oil sump on a 993 case has an opening on the face with the turbo sump in the motor mount. It is a bored hole that can easily be opened. The heads and cylinders are also situated so that the sealing surface is below the main compression strike, thus helping out with leakage from boost. The crank in a 964 is far different from the 993 in regard to one is tapered and never balanced, hence the huge dampener pulley and the other is true. Rods are different. There are some integrity difference between the two. When we can we use a 993 base plant and build on that. Other small issues as valves, fan, PS pump, mounts, etc are slightly different.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I found out the engine is a 993 N/A block, it isn't a 964 so hopefully with the internal modifications it will do well with all of the added power.
12-07-2002, 02:31 PM
#28
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[quote]Originally posted by Bill S.:
<strong>themarsman,
Did you have a chance to test drive your new car? Just curious about that engine.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not yet, they ran into a couple of small issues with fittings, sheet metal and such. As of now I am scheduled to fly out to Arizona on the 13th to test it out. I can't wait to feel what that engine is going to be like!
<strong>themarsman,
Did you have a chance to test drive your new car? Just curious about that engine.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not yet, they ran into a couple of small issues with fittings, sheet metal and such. As of now I am scheduled to fly out to Arizona on the 13th to test it out. I can't wait to feel what that engine is going to be like!
12-22-2002, 06:10 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Bill S.:
<strong>themarsman,
Did you have a chance to test drive your new car? Just curious about that engine.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I just returned from Arizona after driving my new car and all I can say is WOW!!!
There is a significant amount of lag initially, but after that it pulls like a jet and keeps pulling like crazy.
I can see I am going to immediately need to get some more tire on all four corners, the stock tires are not up to the task, the car breaks all four tires loose at a 40mph roll in setting one!
I have seen some videos of various 911's on this site and I haven't seen one that seems to be as fast as this one, as soon as I receive the car I will run some true timing tests to see what numbers the car is truly pulling.
Powerhaus still needs to complete a number of items before shipping the car back to me, but I should have the car in 3-4 weeks.
Thanks for all of your feedback and I will report back with any information I come up with.
<strong>themarsman,
Did you have a chance to test drive your new car? Just curious about that engine.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I just returned from Arizona after driving my new car and all I can say is WOW!!!
There is a significant amount of lag initially, but after that it pulls like a jet and keeps pulling like crazy.
I can see I am going to immediately need to get some more tire on all four corners, the stock tires are not up to the task, the car breaks all four tires loose at a 40mph roll in setting one!
I have seen some videos of various 911's on this site and I haven't seen one that seems to be as fast as this one, as soon as I receive the car I will run some true timing tests to see what numbers the car is truly pulling.
Powerhaus still needs to complete a number of items before shipping the car back to me, but I should have the car in 3-4 weeks.
Thanks for all of your feedback and I will report back with any information I come up with.
