Changing the IC - a DIY?
03-01-2002, 05:25 AM
#16
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Rick
My problem is that it should not be "opinions" when talking about the numerical,measurable effectiveness of an expensive "bolt on" part and surely this board should be about discussing which parts work and which don't. You can have an "opinion" about the look of a wheel, but not about the relative effectiveness of an I/C. Again you say "the read out of the Andial guage didn't seem slow" -how can you say this unless you have compared its speed to that of the Hammer read out. The Andial is NOT slow but the Hammer is INSTANTANEOUS and so will capture the paek readings which the Andial guage won't. You say the Andial reading would "rise and then level out" -this is absolutely NOT what is happening in reality that is why you're interpretation of the effectiveness of the I/C is flawed. The temperature never "levels out" at the high end it either rises or falls until you stop shoving boost through it.
Your comment about the Turbo S tail is interesting, what sort of shrouding do you have to use, is it a good fit ?
Lastly I understood what you were saying about Andial I/C - I just thought you were stating the obvious about needing better Intercooling and the effectiveness/ineffectiveness of the Andial I/C has little relevance to this discussion.
My problem is that it should not be "opinions" when talking about the numerical,measurable effectiveness of an expensive "bolt on" part and surely this board should be about discussing which parts work and which don't. You can have an "opinion" about the look of a wheel, but not about the relative effectiveness of an I/C. Again you say "the read out of the Andial guage didn't seem slow" -how can you say this unless you have compared its speed to that of the Hammer read out. The Andial is NOT slow but the Hammer is INSTANTANEOUS and so will capture the paek readings which the Andial guage won't. You say the Andial reading would "rise and then level out" -this is absolutely NOT what is happening in reality that is why you're interpretation of the effectiveness of the I/C is flawed. The temperature never "levels out" at the high end it either rises or falls until you stop shoving boost through it.
Your comment about the Turbo S tail is interesting, what sort of shrouding do you have to use, is it a good fit ?
Lastly I understood what you were saying about Andial I/C - I just thought you were stating the obvious about needing better Intercooling and the effectiveness/ineffectiveness of the Andial I/C has little relevance to this discussion.
03-01-2002, 02:43 PM
#17
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You said:
"You say the Andial reading would "rise and then level out" -this is absolutely NOT what is happening in reality that is why you're interpretation of the effectiveness of the I/C is flawed"
Of course that's what is happening. If you were to draw a temp curve, you would see that it would rise quickly when you first floored it, but would start to flatten-out once you have reached red line. The temp curve will follow the HP curve, which also flattens-out.
Do you think the temp would continue to rise to 10,000 degrees if you kept your foot in it? Of course not as the rate of increase slows down as it approaches the maximum temp that will be produced by a given energy level (HP). When I saw the reading slow down is when I looked at the difference between the input and output of the IC.
My reference to the Andial IC was just another example of an IC that is produced which is more efficient than the stock unit. I believe you doubted the need of a better IC than the stock unit no matter what the HP level was. If that was the case, why did Porsche develop the larger intercooler for the 993 GT2?
"You say the Andial reading would "rise and then level out" -this is absolutely NOT what is happening in reality that is why you're interpretation of the effectiveness of the I/C is flawed"
Of course that's what is happening. If you were to draw a temp curve, you would see that it would rise quickly when you first floored it, but would start to flatten-out once you have reached red line. The temp curve will follow the HP curve, which also flattens-out.
Do you think the temp would continue to rise to 10,000 degrees if you kept your foot in it? Of course not as the rate of increase slows down as it approaches the maximum temp that will be produced by a given energy level (HP). When I saw the reading slow down is when I looked at the difference between the input and output of the IC.
My reference to the Andial IC was just another example of an IC that is produced which is more efficient than the stock unit. I believe you doubted the need of a better IC than the stock unit no matter what the HP level was. If that was the case, why did Porsche develop the larger intercooler for the 993 GT2?
03-02-2002, 08:45 AM
#19
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Whoops, pushed wrong key !
Data from engine bench dyno:
3500rpm 15degC
4000 18degC
4570 20degC
4990 23
5550 26
5800 30
6040 33
6480 40
6520 49
6810 53
7030 55
Now plot the curve:
mmmm that doesn't look like its flattening out at the top end does it.
Of course it won't rise to 10,000deg 'cos you'd hit the rev limiter DOH.
I'm glad your done arguing about this <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
Data from engine bench dyno:
3500rpm 15degC
4000 18degC
4570 20degC
4990 23
5550 26
5800 30
6040 33
6480 40
6520 49
6810 53
7030 55
Now plot the curve:
mmmm that doesn't look like its flattening out at the top end does it.
Of course it won't rise to 10,000deg 'cos you'd hit the rev limiter DOH.
I'm glad your done arguing about this <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
03-02-2002, 04:52 PM
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What happens to the temp curve when you hold the rpm at 7030? It flattens-out as does the HP.
Additionally, you made these measurements on a dyno where you did not have the benefit of moving air across the tail. Traveling at 150 MPH will provide a hell of a lot more cooling through the intercooler than possibly a fan blowing across the intercooler on the dyno.
I spent a day at The Racers Group watching them use a dyno with 2 very HUGE fans. They had to wait a long time between their runs, to allow the engine to cool down, because of the excessive heat build up. The fans helped, but didn't provide nearly the same cooling as the car traveling at high speeds. Apples and Oranges.
Higher speed = More air = more cooling = flatter line at the higher speeds
Additionally, you made these measurements on a dyno where you did not have the benefit of moving air across the tail. Traveling at 150 MPH will provide a hell of a lot more cooling through the intercooler than possibly a fan blowing across the intercooler on the dyno.
I spent a day at The Racers Group watching them use a dyno with 2 very HUGE fans. They had to wait a long time between their runs, to allow the engine to cool down, because of the excessive heat build up. The fans helped, but didn't provide nearly the same cooling as the car traveling at high speeds. Apples and Oranges.
Higher speed = More air = more cooling = flatter line at the higher speeds
03-03-2002, 05:04 AM
#21
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Ok the temp curve would hold @ around 55deg @ 7030 rpm but 6th gear and 200mph is the only way you could acheive this with full boost. When I reffered before to the temp "rising or falling with the boost" I was descibing real driving situations on either the road or track (maybe that 7030 in 6th could be held on the Mulsanne straight 
). The dyno I refer to is a static bench dyno which has a custom made water cooled I/C specifically made for these engines, I admit they can't replicate the air flow through an air/air I/C at 200mph, but the temp figures are still correct - as I said before, get a Hammer, plug it in and see the temp curve for yourself on the road -indisputable <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
). The dyno I refer to is a static bench dyno which has a custom made water cooled I/C specifically made for these engines, I admit they can't replicate the air flow through an air/air I/C at 200mph, but the temp figures are still correct - as I said before, get a Hammer, plug it in and see the temp curve for yourself on the road -indisputable <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
03-12-2002, 07:55 PM
#22
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Hey TB993tt - I can try to run a few before and after G-Tech runs if you like to see if I notice any difference. I do not have the analytical tools you have. Any suggestions? <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
03-13-2002, 07:58 AM
#23
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ZCAT3
The G Tech is probably not accurate enough to prove anything.
Next time you are at your tech's workshop, get him to plug the Hammer into your footwell and set it to intake temperature. Go playing -a few runs through to 6500rpm in 3rd or 4th - and watch how the intake temperature rises and falls(doesn't hold a peak as suggested elsewhere <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> ) atke note of the maximum intake you see and ideally compare it with a before install run - you will see little if any difference from the Cargraphic I/C <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
The G Tech is probably not accurate enough to prove anything.
Next time you are at your tech's workshop, get him to plug the Hammer into your footwell and set it to intake temperature. Go playing -a few runs through to 6500rpm in 3rd or 4th - and watch how the intake temperature rises and falls(doesn't hold a peak as suggested elsewhere <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> ) atke note of the maximum intake you see and ideally compare it with a before install run - you will see little if any difference from the Cargraphic I/C <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
