Dan993

I picked up my car from Andial yesterday. It was in for the ECU update, replacing the Theilert (sp?) ECU with a Bosch unit programmed for the twin spark motor. This update to replace the old unit accomplished the following on my car:
1. Starts immediately; old ECU contributed to hard starting
2. Power is reportedly up from 570hp to 590hp on premium (according to Andial). I can attest to smoother, more immediate throttle response
3. Idle is smooth and even and recovers immediately after hi-revs
4. Fuel mileage is up from a hwy max of about 17 to 21.
5. Switch for second program mapping is now non-functional, as there is only one program. Should i choose to run racing fuel and desire the hotter program, I can switch back to the old ECU.
6. Now completely smog legal in CA complete with OBDII codes set properly. I can get a clean smog cert right now.

Any of you with the old ECU should consider this switch (costly as it is).

TB993tt

Did any of you Andial twin plug guys find the source of the ECU - surely the most important element of your motor - If its FVD then I would be 99% certain its one from RS Tuning - welcome to the world of RS Motronic twin plug How much overboost are you seeing around 4500rpm ?

Dan993

ECU came from Germany. That's all I could get out of them. Can you direct me to some further info on FVD and RS Tuning? Have not had my eye on the boost gauge...

TB993tt

FVD have a good web site and sell lots of good Porsche stuff, they buy their ECUs from RS Tuning who are one of only a few who can program Motronic to work (like the original factory program ie controlling boost) with twin plug. The only other succsessful tuner I knew of is Gunther Mandl, ex Lotec/TTP and now with Sportec.
Someone, Q45 with your spec motor mentioned FVD (I think) in which case it will be RS. Why FVD and not direct to RS ? - They are incredibly difficult to deal with and FVD in Germany would doubtless have a better chance of getting what you needed. RS programming obviously can't be as good as a bespoke engine dyno session will be based around an existing twin plug program with your spec turbos will give you a nice lump at 4500rpm (like 1.3+ bar) . Check your boost at 6000rpm and we can easily guess at the "RS" power your 3.8 is delivering

Jean

Dan, first congrats on your "new" car . It is interesting what you said about the idle recovering immediately after hard revs, I had initially a similar problem with my engine until it went through a road mapping session, and now it is perfect.

I guess Andial has had to share all the data tables from the Thielert setup and turbo configuration-at least-with the German ECU supplier in order to have a good setup. There is no doubt that the absence of the engine from RS (or other) dyno will somewhat compromise optimum performance. How the engine reacts to heat and how far can you push timing with the specific Andial setup etc.. will no doubt be somewhat unknown. Being Andial we are talking about here, it would be interesting to know how they overcome these complex issues as i am sure they have a trick or two up their sleeves.

TB I think it will be difficult to get an HP estimate based on boost readings only. You have very different turbos, different I/C, different displacement, different exhaust, different gas etc..If RS have tuned as conservatively (or realistically, rather ) as on your car, I would doubt you can see more HP coming out of this engine, since your turbos are , I think, better, and my understanding from you is that the Andial I/C, as tested by RS, did not get them better efficiency than stock.

What are your thoughts?

TB993tt

My questions about the boost are based on the reported 571 Andial engine dynoed hp at a fixed 0.95 bar - If one can see what the new ECU allows at 6000rpm one can simplistically guesstimate if there is more or less than the 571hp. Re the Andial I/C - yes RS said that but I am open minded and would love to see a back to back test with a stocker. If the actual peak power actually turned out to be 520-540 RS hp, it would not surprise me but with the sort of curve the RS Motronic can give I would imagine these motors to feel very powerful. I note what JJayB has said before about the power delivery becoming "uncontrollable" when running at high boost with a very spikey delivery making the more powerful car actually slower to drive on the track.
This engine uses relatively small turbos and contrary to all Euro tuners still run stock cats so my guess is that the power falls off quickly over 6000rpm, is this the case guys ?

911/Q45

Can't give boost readings, as we are limited by the factory gauge that only goes to 0.8 bar. I shift at 6300, so can't address power over 6K very well. The ECU has an FVD sticker on it with date and program identifier. I would assess the power available at all RPM as "plenty".

Dan993

I have the Andial boost gauge installed in the left AC vent. Problem is I can't really look at it while giving full throttle; I have to keep an eye out for traffic and cops. Perhaps late one night or early one morning I can figure it out and post.

So, I was so excited to get the car back and so pleased with the results, I tripped down to Crystal Cove, Newport Beach this morning for the car show. Brag to my buddies, don't you know! Well, a Jag XK140 parked next to me and apparently the driver smacked that heavy, fat door into my passenger door. Large dent and substantail paint damage. He did not leave a note and I was only able to determine who was parked next to me from pics posted on Ferrari-Chat.com. My plan is to find him via the Jag Club (I have HIS picture and his car) and/or find him next Saturday. This will involve a respray of the entire right door. Don't expect this to happen at a car show.

911/Q45

I had a judge at a concours event whack my car with his clipboard. This is why it's so difficult to get a concealed carry permit in CA!

Dan993

LOL!

Thanks for that. I needed it!

JJayB

"I guess Andial has had to share all the data tables from the Thielert setup and turbo configuration-at least-with the German ECU supplier in order to have a good setup."

Jean
The Andial program used in the "updated" ECU is their 92 octane Thielert program. Willie Brombecker and Arnold Wagner the "An of ANDIAL" have been friends for some time. My understanding is that Willie Brombecker's engineers built the ecu that Andial currently uses according to Andials specs. The reason for the change was 1.) availability in the future, as Thielert was no longer making the ecu's and 2.) Emissions and driveability. Many customers wanted a just like stock dirvability.

I can tell you that the race program I have in my Thielert ecu for track days has not been shared by Andial with anyone. There are several of these they have used for their customers. I've run 1/4 mile runs with both and the race Thielert and newer FVD and the difference is .3-.4 seconds quicker in the quarter miles and 5 miles an hour faster on a quality accelerometrer. Now, as TB pointed out, the added hp is worthless on the track UNLESS you have a race suspension. I've run test days with Cort Wagner and he said " I can't put the power down becaue of the the chassis." You need a race set up to use the added power. Unless one is drag racing, the FVD ecu makes much more sense.

JJayB

"my guess is that the power falls off quickly over 6000rpm, is this the case guys ?"


TB
dyno figures show a drop in hp of 7 hp from 6000 to 6528 rpm. Not very significant.

Jean

JJayB
Interesting information, thanks for sharing. I think they took the right step in getting out of Thielert as they are dedicated to racing exclusively now apparently. I am not sure what Premium fuel is in the US but Dan says above that the FVD ECU has increased hp from 570 to 590hp apparently, which is quite an achievement at these power levels.

As for the suspension setup, I could not agree more, after having changed to Moton adjustable, control arms, sway bars, springs etc.. and thinking that my car was great after driving it on the 'Ring, a German Supercup race engineer said it handled like sh$t, so it stayed for 2 weeks at a racing shop in Stuttgart getting the rest of the suspension sorted out, it cost a fortune, but there is no point in getting the power and not the handling.