993tt/GT2 Power claims on Pistonheads
01-25-2006, 07:43 AM
#32
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This smells like fish 
Call me a skeptic but I think the Ninemeister monster was rather a dummy. With its stock GT2 K24s JC's 993GT2 did not, and could not, have more than 450HP and I think JC realizes it. 9M dyno seems to show BIG numbers 
Leon, grab that AX22 of yours and give us and yourself some satisfaction please, it is only a 7-8 second run afterall.
Call me a skeptic but I think the Ninemeister monster was rather a dummy. With its stock GT2 K24s JC's 993GT2 did not, and could not, have more than 450HP and I think JC realizes it. 9M dyno seems to show BIG numbers Leon, grab that AX22 of yours and give us and yourself some satisfaction please, it is only a 7-8 second run afterall.
01-25-2006, 07:53 AM
#33
Hi Jean Ref your comments, more than willing to try back to back with the other RS Tuning guys, not quite sure what you state it as being a dummy, surely if I wriggled out of it this would be a dummy!
01-25-2006, 08:16 AM
#34
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JC, rumors have it that a black 993GT2 is being worked on by Weltmeister, is that your car?
Is your 9M car running?
Are you planning to run against TB's RS with a 9M or a Weltmeister package? Care to elaborate please and clarify why you did the change.
Sorry to repeat myself again but GT2 stock turbos cannot give flow more than 450-460HP regardless how aggressive your mapping is.
Thanks
Is your 9M car running?
Are you planning to run against TB's RS with a 9M or a Weltmeister package? Care to elaborate please and clarify why you did the change.
Sorry to repeat myself again but GT2 stock turbos cannot give flow more than 450-460HP regardless how aggressive your mapping is.
Thanks
01-25-2006, 08:30 AM
#35
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Originally Posted by Jean
JC, rumors have it that a black 993GT2 is being worked on by Weltmeister, is that your car?
Is your 9M car running?
Are you planning to run against TB's RS with a 9M or a Weltmeister package? Care to elaborate please and clarify why you did the change.
Sorry to repeat myself again but GT2 stock turbos cannot give flow more than 450-460HP regardless how aggressive your mapping is.
Thanks
Is your 9M car running?
Are you planning to run against TB's RS with a 9M or a Weltmeister package? Care to elaborate please and clarify why you did the change.
Sorry to repeat myself again but GT2 stock turbos cannot give flow more than 450-460HP regardless how aggressive your mapping is.
Thanks
I think the black car at WM is someone elses 993tt NOT a GT2. JCs GT2 is running 9M fixed boost package which gave 540hp - this is what we want to compare
01-25-2006, 08:44 AM
#36
The car is indeed at Weltmeister. I had some issues with overboost and whilst the car was in for some mechanical work (new diff plates being one) they offered a suggestion on how to resolve this issue. Location is a big factor for me, they are one hour 15 minutes from me instead of 3-4 hours depending on traffic to 9M.
This is a very emotive subject for you RS Tuning chaps, and to be honest I'm sure if I'd lavished the amounts of money on my car that you have I'd want some pretty definitave results. I've gone the 'cheap' route and in some of your eyes impossible route of gaining more power.
At the end of the day I am more than happy to run my GT2 against the various other cars of TB, MOD 500 and Leon and I will be more than happy to put my hands up and say you were right all along if their cars are quicker. No really sure what else I can say!
I am not the purveyor of the infinate knowledge and wisdom that some of you chaps seem to be, however I'd like to keep this on an amicable level rather than degenerating into some sort of Tuner Witchunt
This is a very emotive subject for you RS Tuning chaps, and to be honest I'm sure if I'd lavished the amounts of money on my car that you have I'd want some pretty definitave results. I've gone the 'cheap' route and in some of your eyes impossible route of gaining more power.
At the end of the day I am more than happy to run my GT2 against the various other cars of TB, MOD 500 and Leon and I will be more than happy to put my hands up and say you were right all along if their cars are quicker. No really sure what else I can say!
I am not the purveyor of the infinate knowledge and wisdom that some of you chaps seem to be, however I'd like to keep this on an amicable level rather than degenerating into some sort of Tuner Witchunt
01-25-2006, 09:27 AM
#37
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JC
Of course this will remain amicable, but are you now saying your motor will NOT be running the 9M specification.
Remember what you said when I questioned the numbers:
Then of course 9Ms response to my questioning his dyno's numbers
Yes of cause it becomes emotive when one thinks one has a handle on something spends a lot of money and is then told that it could be had for a third of the price
The reason we were going to run my 541PS against your (9M) 540hp was to see who was right. If you are now changing to WM then what is the answer to this going to be ? Are you now saying that the 9M motor was flawed in some way and the "wizard Motronic mapper's" spell was short lived
You mentioned 2 GT2s with the 9M "in excess of 540hp" package - can I send the AX22 for a 60-130mph to be tested on the other one ?
Of course this will remain amicable, but are you now saying your motor will NOT be running the 9M specification.
Remember what you said when I questioned the numbers:
Originally Posted by JC from Pistonheads
There is no valid reason for you to question the 9m figures, there are two 993 GT2's that both have proven power in excess of 540bhp!
As for the twin spark head, not needed until you breach 600bhp.
Our mods are:
K24 turbos (off the shelf no mods)
Billet dump valves
Larger injectors
Apexi boost controller
Cargraphic additional large oil cooler
9m alluminium head seals (mine has these as when the engine was stripped for preventative maintenence, was prudent to have them fitted)
Oh and a wizard of a Motronic mapper! The most important ingredient of the mix!
That's it, nothing else needed. The two cars in question have the most amazing linear power delivery of any turbo Porsche I have driven. Sure 9m will post one of the Dyno plots.
Fact is, many high end tuners charge high end money for the same work. 9m has proved this is not necessary.
As for the twin spark head, not needed until you breach 600bhp.
Our mods are:
K24 turbos (off the shelf no mods)
Billet dump valves
Larger injectors
Apexi boost controller
Cargraphic additional large oil cooler
9m alluminium head seals (mine has these as when the engine was stripped for preventative maintenence, was prudent to have them fitted)
Oh and a wizard of a Motronic mapper! The most important ingredient of the mix!
That's it, nothing else needed. The two cars in question have the most amazing linear power delivery of any turbo Porsche I have driven. Sure 9m will post one of the Dyno plots.
Fact is, many high end tuners charge high end money for the same work. 9m has proved this is not necessary.
Originally Posted by Colin 9M from Pistonheads
With respect to the difference in the mods we do compared with RS tuning, I have found that we get more power/torque out of our engines on lower boost levels purely because we run more ignition timing on a rich mixture, rather than up the boost and back off the timing on a weaker mixture.
However judging by the standard of mapping seen on a couple of German tuned 993RSR's recently, I would not be surprised if simply a more complete understanding of the management system has a greater part to play.
But you are clearly questioning my dyno numbers Toby, the very same dyno that I have used for 15 years with great results. The trouble is that you have shaken the tree and are now backing out of the way of the falling coconuts, so here’s one for you:
When you visited 9m earlier this year, do you not remember me offering to dyno your car for free? You have seen the cooling arrangelent on my installation and know that one test will not punish the car, so why have you not taken me up on this offer?
Is it that, possibly because of the money you have spent, you do not want to know how well your RS tuning engine compares to JC's and RG's? I am sure that given the opportunity JC would be up for sharing the same test session (at the same cost), thus putting the debate to bed once and for all.
Come on, what have you got to loose?
However judging by the standard of mapping seen on a couple of German tuned 993RSR's recently, I would not be surprised if simply a more complete understanding of the management system has a greater part to play.
But you are clearly questioning my dyno numbers Toby, the very same dyno that I have used for 15 years with great results. The trouble is that you have shaken the tree and are now backing out of the way of the falling coconuts, so here’s one for you:
When you visited 9m earlier this year, do you not remember me offering to dyno your car for free? You have seen the cooling arrangelent on my installation and know that one test will not punish the car, so why have you not taken me up on this offer?
Is it that, possibly because of the money you have spent, you do not want to know how well your RS tuning engine compares to JC's and RG's? I am sure that given the opportunity JC would be up for sharing the same test session (at the same cost), thus putting the debate to bed once and for all.
Come on, what have you got to loose?
The reason we were going to run my 541PS against your (9M) 540hp was to see who was right. If you are now changing to WM then what is the answer to this going to be ? Are you now saying that the 9M motor was flawed in some way and the "wizard Motronic mapper's" spell was short lived
You mentioned 2 GT2s with the 9M "in excess of 540hp" package - can I send the AX22 for a 60-130mph to be tested on the other one ?
01-25-2006, 10:12 AM
#38
TT, at the end of the day as I understand it, the crux of this at present friendly debate is whether for modest outlay you can obtain power figures that are the measure of the extent of modifications you have had completed by RS Tuning.
You guys say no, we've been told yes so the only option is to run several cars to conclude the debate. As I've said I have no issue with this, and am more than happy to concede who the winner may or not be.
As mentioned in a previous post, due to the location of the mapping guy versus Weltmeister it's far easier to travel a 2-3 hours round trip rather than 6-8.
At the end of the day if you and Jean's ascertions are correct, it matters not where the work is done as they will not make more than 450bhp!
Let's get together on a day that suits us all and see what go's! And can we may sure some humour is interjected into the proceedings, I did'nt think this was life or death!
You guys say no, we've been told yes so the only option is to run several cars to conclude the debate. As I've said I have no issue with this, and am more than happy to concede who the winner may or not be.
As mentioned in a previous post, due to the location of the mapping guy versus Weltmeister it's far easier to travel a 2-3 hours round trip rather than 6-8.
At the end of the day if you and Jean's ascertions are correct, it matters not where the work is done as they will not make more than 450bhp!
Let's get together on a day that suits us all and see what go's! And can we may sure some humour is interjected into the proceedings, I did'nt think this was life or death!
01-25-2006, 10:35 AM
#39
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JC
I think it is understandable where TB might not take this so lightly after reading these 2 posts above.
Of course all of this is done in good spirit and it is not about whose car is faster at all, I think in this particular case it is about setting the record straight on a technical issue, being that a stock K24 single plug engine with a boost controller can be nowehere close to a well prepared twinplug, huge turbos-based Motronic controlled engine.
Stock K24s will not take you beyond 450-460HP unfortunately.
Sorry if this came across too seriously, it is not at all.
I think it is understandable where TB might not take this so lightly after reading these 2 posts above.
Of course all of this is done in good spirit and it is not about whose car is faster at all, I think in this particular case it is about setting the record straight on a technical issue, being that a stock K24 single plug engine with a boost controller can be nowehere close to a well prepared twinplug, huge turbos-based Motronic controlled engine.
Stock K24s will not take you beyond 450-460HP unfortunately.
Sorry if this came across too seriously, it is not at all.
01-25-2006, 10:45 AM
#40
Jean, I don't for one moment doubt the engineering excellence that is intergral to TB's modifications.
My original comments were not designed to rattle anyone, just pass on what I was told and what has been explained from a technical perspective by 9m.
I just want to have a bit of fun on the day, not my bag to get into the mine's better/quicker/rarer/worth more/ blah blah blah blah!
My original comments were not designed to rattle anyone, just pass on what I was told and what has been explained from a technical perspective by 9m.
I just want to have a bit of fun on the day, not my bag to get into the mine's better/quicker/rarer/worth more/ blah blah blah blah!
01-25-2006, 12:24 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by RS Clubsport
Jean, I don't for one moment doubt the engineering excellence that is intergral to TB's modifications.
My original comments were not designed to rattle anyone, just pass on what I was told and what has been explained from a technical perspective by 9m.
I just want to have a bit of fun on the day, not my bag to get into the mine's better/quicker/rarer/worth more/ blah blah blah blah!
My original comments were not designed to rattle anyone, just pass on what I was told and what has been explained from a technical perspective by 9m.
I just want to have a bit of fun on the day, not my bag to get into the mine's better/quicker/rarer/worth more/ blah blah blah blah!
If you re read what is said by you and 9M above you will probably see what has motivated me here
As you say, you are only regurgitating what 9M have told you, they are the ones which need convincing that chassis dyno power run power (on a Motronic Porsche Turbo) is not the same as engine dyno power done the same way Porsche do it.
Can you persuade your pal to do some 60-130mph runs with the AX22 if I send it to him/you ?
01-25-2006, 02:32 PM
#42
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Yep, am up for a session with the banana.
I think JC has elucidated the debate going on here very well in his last posts
I don't think anyone means any malice in their posts, maybe a few more 
in posts might better convey this fact.
I am no great font of knowledge BTW Just someone who did a lot of research, paid £££, and is very curious to how my set up compares to others
I think JC has elucidated the debate going on here very well in his last posts
I don't think anyone means any malice in their posts, maybe a few more
in posts might better convey this fact.I am no great font of knowledge BTW
Just someone who did a lot of research, paid £££, and is very curious to how my set up compares to others
01-25-2006, 02:33 PM
#43
I understand totally Toby. However I think the 9m issue is something for you and Colin to debate on these cold winters nights! I don't profess to have the level of understanding on the technical issues surrounding this interesting debate that either you, Jean or many other members of Rennlist have.
Please have the courtesy not to try to belittle me by saying 'I'm only regurgetating what 9m told me' I have been quite open to debate this both on Rennlist and via e-mail, don't let your obvious frustration well over into turning this into something on a personal level! and despite your asignations I'm not a 'complete' dunce!
If you are still keen to do these runs let's crack on with it. I've been up for it, and according to most I'll loose - so what, I can live with it, it's not the b all and end all for me!
Why don't we just have an enjoyable day with some like minded enthusiasts, whatever the outcome !
Please have the courtesy not to try to belittle me by saying 'I'm only regurgetating what 9m told me' I have been quite open to debate this both on Rennlist and via e-mail, don't let your obvious frustration well over into turning this into something on a personal level!
and despite your asignations I'm not a 'complete' dunce!If you are still keen to do these runs let's crack on with it. I've been up for it, and according to most I'll loose - so what, I can live with it, it's not the b all and end all for me!
Why don't we just have an enjoyable day with some like minded enthusiasts, whatever the outcome
!
01-25-2006, 03:17 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by RS Clubsport
I understand totally Toby. However I think the 9m issue is something for you and Colin to debate on these cold winters nights! I don't profess to have the level of understanding on the technical issues surrounding this interesting debate that either you, Jean or many other members of Rennlist have.
Please have the courtesy not to try to belittle me by saying 'I'm only regurgetating what 9m told me' I have been quite open to debate this both on Rennlist and via e-mail, don't let your obvious frustration well over into turning this into something on a personal level! and despite your asignations I'm not a 'complete' dunce!
If you are still keen to do these runs let's crack on with it. I've been up for it, and according to most I'll loose - so what, I can live with it, it's not the b all and end all for me!
Why don't we just have an enjoyable day with some like minded enthusiasts, whatever the outcome !
Please have the courtesy not to try to belittle me by saying 'I'm only regurgetating what 9m told me' I have been quite open to debate this both on Rennlist and via e-mail, don't let your obvious frustration well over into turning this into something on a personal level!
and despite your asignations I'm not a 'complete' dunce!If you are still keen to do these runs let's crack on with it. I've been up for it, and according to most I'll loose - so what, I can live with it, it's not the b all and end all for me!
Why don't we just have an enjoyable day with some like minded enthusiasts, whatever the outcome
! word) sharing what has been explained (quite logically - no dispute there, same with 9M, I know they DO believe what their dyno throws out)You have to admit reading the PH posts above there is an tone of "you know better and I have been ripped off" in your post which was then followed by Colin who professed that he would not be surprised if his superior numbers were because of
simply a more complete understanding of the management system has a greater part to play.
Please
We can gladly run when your car has been worked on at Weltmiester - but this thing started with the above posts and we should really get to the bottom of whether the 9M hp is the same as RS hp - Would you do an AX22 run 60-130 on your friends GT2 - this is the simplest way, or will he be able to bring his 9M 540hp car to a private day ?
01-25-2006, 03:34 PM
#45
Not suggesting you have been ripped off at all. At the end of the day I'm happy with what I've got and you're happy with what you've got, the debate is purely whether the chassis dyno figures are equal to engine dyno figures.
9m/Weltmeister/ whoever, the principal is the same, you don't agree chassis dyno = engine dyno.
This debate is of no interest to Russell/IMOM the other GT2 owner, won't tell you what he said when I mentioned the speed runs, again each to his own though!
Toby I fear the issue runs somewhat deeper for you than for others, me especially, and that the debate on 9m power vs. RS Tuning power is a dialogue that you and Colin are best equipped to discuss. At then end of the day he's only ten minutes from you, he might even make you a cuppa!
Let's keep this where it's meant to be - fun. None of it's personal, they are only bloody cars. I've given MOD500 some options on dates, let's look forward to the day.
9m/Weltmeister/ whoever, the principal is the same, you don't agree chassis dyno = engine dyno.
This debate is of no interest to Russell/IMOM the other GT2 owner, won't tell you what he said when I mentioned the speed runs, again each to his own though!
Toby I fear the issue runs somewhat deeper for you than for others, me especially, and that the debate on 9m power vs. RS Tuning power is a dialogue that you and Colin are best equipped to discuss. At then end of the day he's only ten minutes from you, he might even make you a cuppa!
Let's keep this where it's meant to be - fun. None of it's personal, they are only bloody cars.
I've given MOD500 some options on dates, let's look forward to the day.