Contentious question for AMG ETR
02-17-2004, 04:34 AM
#31
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Personally, I want to hear everything AMG ETR, Viber Bob, Old Guy, Kevin Herr Weiner and any other pro has to say about these cars. Well, maybe not Carrerabo...
I'll make up my own mind.
I'll make up my own mind.
02-17-2004, 05:43 AM
#33
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adsc4s & Old Guy
The point of the thread was to alert 993tt owners who may be told definatively by FVD that mechanical rockers are a necessary, power liberating upgrade. There is no other tuner (of 993tt) which I know of who agrees with the FVD line (unless moving on to very aggressive cams). AMG ETR has recently become the fountain of knowledge on all things FVD so I called him out etc....
I have corresponeded and spoken with many people off Rennlist over the past 4 years who have been confused (by FVD) on this issue -- so thought that the wider audience may appreciate knowing the ins and outs of it.
I think the point has been made and we can go back to complementing each others good taste now
The point of the thread was to alert 993tt owners who may be told definatively by FVD that mechanical rockers are a necessary, power liberating upgrade. There is no other tuner (of 993tt) which I know of who agrees with the FVD line (unless moving on to very aggressive cams). AMG ETR has recently become the fountain of knowledge on all things FVD so I called him out etc....
I have corresponeded and spoken with many people off Rennlist over the past 4 years who have been confused (by FVD) on this issue -- so thought that the wider audience may appreciate knowing the ins and outs of it.
I think the point has been made and we can go back to complementing each others good taste now
02-17-2004, 12:34 PM
#34
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Tour, dont mix me up with those pros. I am only a couple
months ahead of you on the learning curve! I am
just to the point of know how to deactivate my immobilizer
with my remote, and knowing how the emergency brake works
when taking off the rotors!
months ahead of you on the learning curve! I am
just to the point of know how to deactivate my immobilizer
with my remote, and knowing how the emergency brake works
when taking off the rotors!
02-22-2004, 07:48 AM
#38
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Hi Guys
Getting back to the original tread here... (Are solid/Mechanical Rockers) the magic ingredient as opposed to hydraulic.
I currently have the motor out of my car and would agree with TB993TT on this. You have to have attempted to set the clearences on a 911 to even appreciate the difficulties in this job, and that's before you consider it on a 993. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT REMOVING THE ENGINE. And even then you need to remove pretty much everything off the engine to accomplish it...EXHAUST's, TURBOS, HYDRAULIC PUMP Etc.
With this in mind, it's obvious to me that this becomes a money making sales pitch for all tuners alike. Unless you intend to race your car and are in the High rev range most of the time then you would be wiser spending money else where on your baby.
I see that there is no 'real' reason to rev over the 6500Rpm line (IMHO). Power has gone by then....Change gear before your conrods bend! (Common Known weak point on the 993TT)
If you have money to waste and wish to pay the $$$$ to the tuning companies to remove your engine and set your clearences every 10-12K (Read this as basically EVERY service) then go ahead. While your at it why not ask them to stuff some 'fifties' in the intake pipes too ask them to make it worth more!?!
When you are modifiying your car you have to keep your head about you. Don't always believe the hype of tuners and DONT get carried away.
Remember Sensible modifications are always better.
Go buy some fluffy Dice...
Getting back to the original tread here... (Are solid/Mechanical Rockers) the magic ingredient as opposed to hydraulic.
I currently have the motor out of my car and would agree with TB993TT on this. You have to have attempted to set the clearences on a 911 to even appreciate the difficulties in this job, and that's before you consider it on a 993. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT REMOVING THE ENGINE. And even then you need to remove pretty much everything off the engine to accomplish it...EXHAUST's, TURBOS, HYDRAULIC PUMP Etc.
With this in mind, it's obvious to me that this becomes a money making sales pitch for all tuners alike. Unless you intend to race your car and are in the High rev range most of the time then you would be wiser spending money else where on your baby.
I see that there is no 'real' reason to rev over the 6500Rpm line (IMHO). Power has gone by then....Change gear before your conrods bend! (Common Known weak point on the 993TT)
If you have money to waste and wish to pay the $$$$ to the tuning companies to remove your engine and set your clearences every 10-12K (Read this as basically EVERY service) then go ahead. While your at it why not ask them to stuff some 'fifties' in the intake pipes too ask them to make it worth more!?!
When you are modifiying your car you have to keep your head about you. Don't always believe the hype of tuners and DONT get carried away.
Remember Sensible modifications are always better.
Go buy some fluffy Dice...
02-22-2004, 08:05 AM
#39
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mjims
Good post. I am interested how you use the Blitz boost controller with the RS Tuning ECU ? I know RS don't like these devices,(they ripped mine straight out !) they control the boost with the motronic and any external controller, whilst would physically increase the boost, wouldn't work with the Motronic program ?
I would add that with the right turbos and cams one can get real power to over 7000rpm (and WOT 6000 to 7100rpm is pure heaven
)
and the hydraulics still work -as Viperbob says, its in the springing
BTW isn't it torque that bends the rods.
Good post. I am interested how you use the Blitz boost controller with the RS Tuning ECU ? I know RS don't like these devices,(they ripped mine straight out !) they control the boost with the motronic and any external controller, whilst would physically increase the boost, wouldn't work with the Motronic program ?
I would add that with the right turbos and cams one can get real power to over 7000rpm (and WOT 6000 to 7100rpm is pure heaven
)and the hydraulics still work -as Viperbob says, its in the springing
BTW isn't it torque that bends the rods.
02-23-2004, 10:35 AM
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I don't know as yet. I am currently plumbing both the Blitz Unit and Standard units in parrallel so that there is an 'easy' swappable vacuum hose next to the Actuator to allow a swap.
I will then have a play with both types in a side by side test to determine if it's a worth while unit.
I'm interested to know why boost controllers are not recommended, (Apart from the obvious...that it's already got one).
My Purpose was to elimitate boost 'Bleed' upto the actuation point (Kinda like fitting a heavier duty spring in a 930 Style Wastegate).
My understanding is that the Blitz unit can apply the Turbos own positive pressure 'against' the actuator to keep it pinned closed up until the required boost is reached. (Not neccasarly more than the standard 0.8Bar). This in turn would provide a power increase due to less 'wasteage' within the lower to midrange revs. Or that was my theory anyway.
Your comments are always welcome.
Where in the UK are you based?
Thanks
I will then have a play with both types in a side by side test to determine if it's a worth while unit.
I'm interested to know why boost controllers are not recommended, (Apart from the obvious...that it's already got one).
My Purpose was to elimitate boost 'Bleed' upto the actuation point (Kinda like fitting a heavier duty spring in a 930 Style Wastegate).
My understanding is that the Blitz unit can apply the Turbos own positive pressure 'against' the actuator to keep it pinned closed up until the required boost is reached. (Not neccasarly more than the standard 0.8Bar). This in turn would provide a power increase due to less 'wasteage' within the lower to midrange revs. Or that was my theory anyway.
Your comments are always welcome.
Where in the UK are you based?
Thanks
02-23-2004, 12:48 PM
#41
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mjims
I know exactly what you are saying, I have been down that route and there probably is some merit in thinking that the boost may onset that bit quicker with this type of controller. (this is certainly what the people flogging them tell you anyway) I appreciate your thinking when you say you won't neccessarily exceed the stock 0.88. The thing is, even the stock ECU program will vary the boost as the revs rise, typically winding up to maximum around 4500rpm of say 0.88, then around 0.6bar at peak power 5750rpm, then rising again to 0.8ish towards the rev limiter -the ECU will vary the boost along with other parameters according to the readings it gets from the various sensors but importantly the air mass -the ECU doesn't actually see boost per se. Obviously the problem in disconnecting the ECUs control of the boost and setting a fixed 0.88 is that at peak power for example the computer will be attempting to reduce boost and when it can't (ie it still sees the relatively high air mass) then it will start playing with timing etc and it WILL reduce the power, you can't beat it unless you run a specificly tuned ECU (Protomotive do one which runs at set boost levels -Viperbob runs this system I think. I tried it but wasn't happy with the results because it wasn't matched to the hybrid turbos I had at the time)
I am an advocate of the Motronics way of doing things -with my set up, under certain conditions, I have seen as much as 1.6bar @ 4500rpm. Also the motronic allows an overboost situation when you punch the throttle it will (for a couple of seconds) allow more boost than on a steady run up through the revs which results in a more responsive and powerful engine in real world driving situations.
I have been tempted to put one back on to run in parallel with the ECU control (since my ECU drops the boost to around 0.9bar at peak power) and set it to say 1bar so the motronic will allow more but 1bar will be the minimum (if you see what I mean) but I am certain the ECU will compensate to bring the motor back to within its preset parameters and it would be a waste of time.
I know exactly what you are saying, I have been down that route and there probably is some merit in thinking that the boost may onset that bit quicker with this type of controller. (this is certainly what the people flogging them tell you anyway) I appreciate your thinking when you say you won't neccessarily exceed the stock 0.88. The thing is, even the stock ECU program will vary the boost as the revs rise, typically winding up to maximum around 4500rpm of say 0.88, then around 0.6bar at peak power 5750rpm, then rising again to 0.8ish towards the rev limiter -the ECU will vary the boost along with other parameters according to the readings it gets from the various sensors but importantly the air mass -the ECU doesn't actually see boost per se. Obviously the problem in disconnecting the ECUs control of the boost and setting a fixed 0.88 is that at peak power for example the computer will be attempting to reduce boost and when it can't (ie it still sees the relatively high air mass) then it will start playing with timing etc and it WILL reduce the power, you can't beat it unless you run a specificly tuned ECU (Protomotive do one which runs at set boost levels -Viperbob runs this system I think. I tried it but wasn't happy with the results because it wasn't matched to the hybrid turbos I had at the time)
I am an advocate of the Motronics way of doing things -with my set up, under certain conditions, I have seen as much as 1.6bar @ 4500rpm. Also the motronic allows an overboost situation when you punch the throttle it will (for a couple of seconds) allow more boost than on a steady run up through the revs which results in a more responsive and powerful engine in real world driving situations.
I have been tempted to put one back on to run in parallel with the ECU control (since my ECU drops the boost to around 0.9bar at peak power) and set it to say 1bar so the motronic will allow more but 1bar will be the minimum (if you see what I mean) but I am certain the ECU will compensate to bring the motor back to within its preset parameters and it would be a waste of time.
02-26-2004, 09:26 PM
#43
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I know this is the 993tt board, but I at least have your wider body work and brakes : ) (I do have an older turbo though, so between these two, maybe someone will let me in here...)
Anyway...FWIW...I had the solid lifters and aggressive cams installed on my 993...the difference this combination made on a NA 993 motor varioram is pretty phenomenal...whereas the hydraulic set up would start to run out of steam above 5500 rpm, the motor now pulls so much stronger all the way to redline...for the torque shy NA 993 motor, the difference is striking...
I just wanted to chime in as no one has actually mentioned they have driven a car with the aforementioned mechanical lifters...and again, I realise this is not in a tt.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming...
Anyway...FWIW...I had the solid lifters and aggressive cams installed on my 993...the difference this combination made on a NA 993 motor varioram is pretty phenomenal...whereas the hydraulic set up would start to run out of steam above 5500 rpm, the motor now pulls so much stronger all the way to redline...for the torque shy NA 993 motor, the difference is striking...
I just wanted to chime in as no one has actually mentioned they have driven a car with the aforementioned mechanical lifters...and again, I realise this is not in a tt.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming...
02-27-2004, 06:54 AM
#44
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PorscheDavid
Can you attribute this to the mechanical versus hydraulic actuation, or just the different cam profile. I would guess the latter. Who recommended the mechanical lifters, and was it because the cams were uncompatible with the hydraulic system ?
Can you attribute this to the mechanical versus hydraulic actuation, or just the different cam profile. I would guess the latter. Who recommended the mechanical lifters, and was it because the cams were uncompatible with the hydraulic system ?
02-27-2004, 10:46 AM
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TB993tt
My set up works for me and I am not saying any of this in defense of any of the previous strings. My mechanic, who now over the years has since become a friend ( I feel fortunate to be in a situation of trust...it sounds as if others on this board have the same level of trust with the mechanics they work that also post here ) has now done several cars for me. This normally aspirated project for the 993 came after doing a very radical project on my 930. We talked extensively about the pros and cons of each mod and how each mod would work together as a system. I wanted to try something rather "extreme" ( relative term ) for a NA street car...I already was having fun with a rather "extreme" boosted car.
My mechanic who in addition to providing general maintenance for local Porsches also builds some wonderful dedicated track cars and motors...all with an incredible level of reliability. As such we went with a very aggressive cam profile ( I like the lumpy idle sound as well; my preference ) to complement some of the other mods. The only NA mod we didn't go with was the 3.8 conversion...this just didn't seem to have the best bang for the buck from what I have read from other people's experience and from my mechanic's real world experience.
As a complete package, I am happy with the feel of the car. Valve adjustment on NA car is a no brainer compared to your tt cars, so I am not terribly concerned about it when the time comes. The mechanical system on my 930 has been flawless after 20k very "brutal" ( read: FUN ) miles. I understand that for the same money of the C4S and the mods I have done, I could have purchased a tt...I just wanted a NA car this time around...although, as part of the ever expanding garage stable...a tt is coming up on the short list.
All take care,
D
My set up works for me and I am not saying any of this in defense of any of the previous strings. My mechanic, who now over the years has since become a friend ( I feel fortunate to be in a situation of trust...it sounds as if others on this board have the same level of trust with the mechanics they work that also post here ) has now done several cars for me. This normally aspirated project for the 993 came after doing a very radical project on my 930. We talked extensively about the pros and cons of each mod and how each mod would work together as a system. I wanted to try something rather "extreme" ( relative term ) for a NA street car...I already was having fun with a rather "extreme" boosted car.
My mechanic who in addition to providing general maintenance for local Porsches also builds some wonderful dedicated track cars and motors...all with an incredible level of reliability. As such we went with a very aggressive cam profile ( I like the lumpy idle sound as well; my preference ) to complement some of the other mods. The only NA mod we didn't go with was the 3.8 conversion...this just didn't seem to have the best bang for the buck from what I have read from other people's experience and from my mechanic's real world experience.
As a complete package, I am happy with the feel of the car. Valve adjustment on NA car is a no brainer compared to your tt cars, so I am not terribly concerned about it when the time comes. The mechanical system on my 930 has been flawless after 20k very "brutal" ( read: FUN ) miles. I understand that for the same money of the C4S and the mods I have done, I could have purchased a tt...I just wanted a NA car this time around...although, as part of the ever expanding garage stable...a tt is coming up on the short list.
All take care,
D