What is the liability of shop for PPI
03-13-2017, 02:35 PM
#31
Did the records reflect work recently done in these areas? If not then you shouldn't have been surprised this work was over due.
03-13-2017, 02:49 PM
#32
Three Wheelin'
With the Axles and Tie-rods I wasn't surprised they were worn, just surprised that torn boots didn't come up in an inspection.
I'm not trying to say anything untoward occurred and overall I was satisfied. I wanted to share it as an example of how things slip through even if you are doing good due diligence and how almost every car is going to need 'something'.
Part of it is that as a new owner you will look at the car with fresh eyes and will want to fix things that have crept up on the previous owner - things they got used to slowly over time and no longer noticed.
03-13-2017, 03:07 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
PPI is one of many tools used for used car buying valuation and budget management. You will never get a 20 year old car that requires zero sorting after taking possession. A PPI report gives you a working list of issues requiring attention immediate or not.
Rule of thumb is buyer typically needs to factor in purchase + 10% of purchase price to sort out an used car. You hit that goal, then it was a fair buy at your given budget.
These cars are not an investment. They are used for driving pleasure. Once you lose sight of this, then you are inviting in a host of other problems and issues clouding ownership experience.
Rule of thumb is buyer typically needs to factor in purchase + 10% of purchase price to sort out an used car. You hit that goal, then it was a fair buy at your given budget.
These cars are not an investment. They are used for driving pleasure. Once you lose sight of this, then you are inviting in a host of other problems and issues clouding ownership experience.
03-13-2017, 03:12 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Tlaloc75
Suspension was portrayed as in good shape with recent work, yes.
With the Axles and Tie-rods I wasn't surprised they were worn, just surprised that torn boots didn't come up in an inspection.
With the Axles and Tie-rods I wasn't surprised they were worn, just surprised that torn boots didn't come up in an inspection.
Your PPI report is only as good as the PPI list a shop has on file to check and quality of technician performing the work.
03-13-2017, 03:32 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
Yes agreed. There was definitely more that I could have done, including a more detailed inspection on my own. Lessons learned.
I'm well within the 10% rule of thumb you portrayed and hopefully I don't sound like I'm complaining, because I'm not. I'm very happy with the car and I figure its all part of the experience.
I'm well within the 10% rule of thumb you portrayed and hopefully I don't sound like I'm complaining, because I'm not. I'm very happy with the car and I figure its all part of the experience.
03-13-2017, 03:43 PM
#36
Race Director
They are old cars and everyone has different standards. That said, don't tell me its perfect if it ain't.
03-13-2017, 05:41 PM
#37
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
When it comes time to sell the yellow cab, the add will read: "'95 Porsche 993. Service records available for many years. Refuse to describe condition. If you'd like to buy it, come see it or send a trusted representative and decide".
03-13-2017, 05:53 PM
#38
Pro
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I lived near Kansas City for many years and initially used BHR. Then, I found Aaron putting his racing ahead of his business and went with John Clark at Clark Collision Center. He is the absolute best mechanic I have ever experienced - highly recommend him!
03-13-2017, 06:59 PM
#39
I
I can give you an opinion if you post the sellers for sale ad.
Id like to get feedback/post a warning etc for everyone. Here's my story:
I love love love 993s. I just purchased my third one (1997 TT, 1997 c4 cab, 1996 C2) so I'm no stranger to these cars. I frequently read the forums but I don't post a lot. I've had the C2 for a month and purchased it
from a private owner. Beautiful car cosmetically. Mid range miles in the 50s.
Here's my story: lots of conversation with the owner and PPI done (same shop owner serviced the car). PPI showed only belts need replaced and front rotors ($500). Shamefully I didn't go out and see the car and drive it in person. On delivery of the car it is just as described and represented....then I drove it. Grinding from 1st to 2nd gear unless I'm very deliberate in shifting, car pulls to the right, and a very disturbing shuttering on idle. I could tell this on driving 2 blocks and I'm not a mechanic. So I take it to my Indy. Tell him to look it over....in a nutshell his is what he finds:
Clutch is bad
Needs alinement
Air filter
Needs engine mounts
Needs front rotors and pads
Cylinder 6 not firing--needs new ignition harness
Crap; okay fix it. He gets in there and oh by the way the flywheel is warped too and needs to be replaced as well.
Crap; okay do it. Then I get a call; we put everything back together and the idle problem is not fixed although the ignition harness WAS cracked and old and needed replaced. They break it down and find that cylinder 6 has a compression of 20% and one of the valves is burned out....they recommend a top end rebuild....uggghhhhh!!!!
So now I'm going thru what we all dread. I paid a fair price but staring at a 15000 repair bill. I have a great car. And when they are done it will need absolutely nothing. Everything will be done that could possibly need to be. So I understand these cars are old. Things break and it's expensive to fix. I also realize that I should have seen the car in person before buying. And I'm still happy, in a glass half full kind of way.
But what do you all think? Did the reputable shop who did the PPI severely drop the ball? Did the lie to me? Was there negligence? What about the previous owner? I just don't understand how you could own a car and take "great" care of it and not know these things were going on....
I welcome opinions and thoughts no matter how harsh....
I love love love 993s. I just purchased my third one (1997 TT, 1997 c4 cab, 1996 C2) so I'm no stranger to these cars. I frequently read the forums but I don't post a lot. I've had the C2 for a month and purchased it
from a private owner. Beautiful car cosmetically. Mid range miles in the 50s.
Here's my story: lots of conversation with the owner and PPI done (same shop owner serviced the car). PPI showed only belts need replaced and front rotors ($500). Shamefully I didn't go out and see the car and drive it in person. On delivery of the car it is just as described and represented....then I drove it. Grinding from 1st to 2nd gear unless I'm very deliberate in shifting, car pulls to the right, and a very disturbing shuttering on idle. I could tell this on driving 2 blocks and I'm not a mechanic. So I take it to my Indy. Tell him to look it over....in a nutshell his is what he finds:
Clutch is bad
Needs alinement
Air filter
Needs engine mounts
Needs front rotors and pads
Cylinder 6 not firing--needs new ignition harness
Crap; okay fix it. He gets in there and oh by the way the flywheel is warped too and needs to be replaced as well.
Crap; okay do it. Then I get a call; we put everything back together and the idle problem is not fixed although the ignition harness WAS cracked and old and needed replaced. They break it down and find that cylinder 6 has a compression of 20% and one of the valves is burned out....they recommend a top end rebuild....uggghhhhh!!!!
So now I'm going thru what we all dread. I paid a fair price but staring at a 15000 repair bill. I have a great car. And when they are done it will need absolutely nothing. Everything will be done that could possibly need to be. So I understand these cars are old. Things break and it's expensive to fix. I also realize that I should have seen the car in person before buying. And I'm still happy, in a glass half full kind of way.
But what do you all think? Did the reputable shop who did the PPI severely drop the ball? Did the lie to me? Was there negligence? What about the previous owner? I just don't understand how you could own a car and take "great" care of it and not know these things were going on....
I welcome opinions and thoughts no matter how harsh....
I can give you an opinion if you post the sellers for sale ad.
03-13-2017, 07:44 PM
#40
Drifting
My opinion is that there are no cars out there that need zero sorting period. I bet for every car that some seller claims needs absolutely nothing, any number of rennlisters could spot some issues within 30 minutes with the car.
They are old cars and everyone has different standards. That said, don't tell me its perfect if it ain't.
They are old cars and everyone has different standards. That said, don't tell me its perfect if it ain't.
03-16-2017, 10:31 AM
#41
This sux, more and more people getting taken on the 993s..... many even after PPI. I got screwed as well on a PPI car I bought years back and it was a brutal experience. Makes your situation look like a cake walk if makes you feel any better
You sound positive about it given the mess and hope once done you get an awesome machine...
take care
You sound positive about it given the mess and hope once done you get an awesome machine...
take care
03-16-2017, 03:51 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Marin County, Ca.
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ditto---bought a car in New Mexico and relied on PPI from shop there...where owner had a relationship.
To the shops credit, the guy did tell me he doesn't do PPI's because the risk is just not worth it.
He said he was only doing it as a favor to seller.
He did point out most of cars minor flaws... spark plug wires, small leak on lower valve covers, seats worn, hood and bumper rock chips...
I bought the car after going to New Mexico and driving it...all the way to San Francisco in one shot.
Still have it, love it, and have fixed everything, plus PSS10.
Next up is a respray of hood, bumper, and hips...
72k and still on original clutch.
To the shops credit, the guy did tell me he doesn't do PPI's because the risk is just not worth it.
He said he was only doing it as a favor to seller.
He did point out most of cars minor flaws... spark plug wires, small leak on lower valve covers, seats worn, hood and bumper rock chips...
I bought the car after going to New Mexico and driving it...all the way to San Francisco in one shot.
Still have it, love it, and have fixed everything, plus PSS10.
Next up is a respray of hood, bumper, and hips...
72k and still on original clutch.
03-17-2017, 11:39 PM
#43
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think PPI's are overated. There is nothing better than seeing, listening, and driving for yourself... Especially if you are familiar with the car and have owned or driven one or two.
If it's not smoking, leaking oil, starts, drives well, and looks good, what more do you need? Yes, it may need top end work or have other issues, but PPI's can't find everything anyway. If fact, my car runs so well, that if I were selling it, I wouldn't even allow people to PPI it for fear of it being damaged by the PPI. I think if someone would look at and drive my car and still want a PPI, I would think they are crazy. I think a knowledgeable buyer would be able to tell if a car needs further evaluation. Also, a knowledgeable and honest seller is worth more than you can spend on the best PPI money could buy.
If it's not smoking, leaking oil, starts, drives well, and looks good, what more do you need? Yes, it may need top end work or have other issues, but PPI's can't find everything anyway. If fact, my car runs so well, that if I were selling it, I wouldn't even allow people to PPI it for fear of it being damaged by the PPI. I think if someone would look at and drive my car and still want a PPI, I would think they are crazy. I think a knowledgeable buyer would be able to tell if a car needs further evaluation. Also, a knowledgeable and honest seller is worth more than you can spend on the best PPI money could buy.
03-17-2017, 11:49 PM
#44
I think PPI's are overated. There is nothing better than seeing, listening, and driving for yourself... Especially if you are familiar with the car and have owned or driven one or two.
If it's not smoking, leaking oil, starts, drives well, and looks good, what more do you need? Yes, it may need top end work or have other issues, but PPI's can't find everything anyway. If fact, my car runs so well, that if I were selling it, I wouldn't even allow people to PPI it for fear of it being damaged by the PPI. I think if someone would look at and drive my car and still want a PPI, I would think they are crazy. I think a knowledgeable buyer would be able to tell if a car needs further evaluation. Also, a knowledgeable and honest seller is worth more than you can spend on the best PPI money could buy.
If it's not smoking, leaking oil, starts, drives well, and looks good, what more do you need? Yes, it may need top end work or have other issues, but PPI's can't find everything anyway. If fact, my car runs so well, that if I were selling it, I wouldn't even allow people to PPI it for fear of it being damaged by the PPI. I think if someone would look at and drive my car and still want a PPI, I would think they are crazy. I think a knowledgeable buyer would be able to tell if a car needs further evaluation. Also, a knowledgeable and honest seller is worth more than you can spend on the best PPI money could buy.
I got a PPI when I bought mine in '08. It made me feel better at the time because that is what you are supposed to do, due diligence and all that. I did not really get any value out of it beyond what I would have discovered in one hour by my self with the car. If you paid for a full leak-down and compression test + oil analysis maybe that would be worth it.
03-17-2017, 11:59 PM
#45
RL Technical Advisor
I think PPI's are overated. There is nothing better than seeing, listening, and driving for yourself... Especially if you are familiar with the car and have owned or driven one or two.
If it's not smoking, leaking oil, starts, drives well, and looks good, what more do you need? Yes, it may need top end work or have other issues, but PPI's can't find everything anyway. If fact, my car runs so well, that if I were selling it, I wouldn't even allow people to PPI it for fear of it being damaged by the PPI. I think if someone would look at and drive my car and still want a PPI, I would think they are crazy. I think a knowledgeable buyer would be able to tell if a car needs further evaluation. Also, a knowledgeable and honest seller is worth more than you can spend on the best PPI money could buy.
If it's not smoking, leaking oil, starts, drives well, and looks good, what more do you need? Yes, it may need top end work or have other issues, but PPI's can't find everything anyway. If fact, my car runs so well, that if I were selling it, I wouldn't even allow people to PPI it for fear of it being damaged by the PPI. I think if someone would look at and drive my car and still want a PPI, I would think they are crazy. I think a knowledgeable buyer would be able to tell if a car needs further evaluation. Also, a knowledgeable and honest seller is worth more than you can spend on the best PPI money could buy.
Maybe not, depending on who performs the PPI.
Properly done, a PPI includes a leakdown test and thorough inspection of the engine noting anything that needs replacement.
Further, a close inspection of the chassis, transmission, clutch/flywheel test, driveshafts, bushing check, shocks, all rubber suspension boots, oil lines, wheel bearings, calipers, rotors, and pads.
Lastly, the car is looked over very thoroughly for any evidence of undocumented repainting and body repairs. If requested, one can check the paint for thickness which can also detect body filler.
JMHO, of course.