tgil

I appreciate your opinions, as I am in the market for a 993 or 964. Considering parting with my GT3. Since my 1980 is old school raw, and the GT3 is more modern raw, do you think the refined 993 model would be a good fit for me?

Any comments, experiences greatly appreciated. My cars are low miles for their years and not tracked, and are used for cars and coffe Rege, some shows, and Porche social drives, country roads. I am not looking for a show car.

Thanks again.
Todd
Riesentotor Region (Philly area)

pp000830

The 993 has power steering and AC that works.
It has a modern suspension McPhereson front/ multilink back that improves the comfort vs performance ratio.
These are still 20 year old cars and so exhibit both use and age related service needs.

It is interesting to compare the performance data between even a base 993 Carrera and earlier cars from the 80's.

I also have driven a 964 and found it to be a joy to drive as well. It also has power steering. It has Mcphereson struts in the front and substantially improved cast aluminum trailing arms in the rear with wider tires than earlier 911 and so I assume is a lot better than the earlier Carrera as well when driven near the limits.

Both cars finally have a modern electrical system and a provision for a diagnostic code reader, the 964 employs an adapter plug to use the standard DOT style connector. I use Durametric software on a laptop to read data and find it easy and helps sort out issues quite a bit.

Hope this helps

Martin S.

the 1996 - 1998 993 has an advertised HP of 282, a solid 993 motor (Mine does) will put 260 HP to the rear wheels (See attached dyno sheet), with stock mufflers and catalytic converter. If you take a set of stock 993 heater box exhaust manifolds and cut of the heater box, you will see some of the most beautiful headers imaginable...looks like 993 RSR headers. There is a message here...change out your exhaust you'll get more noise, don't expect a significant HP change. You'll sound more bad ***, but your HP won't change significantly, maybe even go down a bit. I do love the FD Motorsports Stage III mufflers...would have them on my car but for the fact that I run Laguna Seca 1X to 2X a year and they have a 90 to 92 dB noise limit. I make the cut with a stock system.

A 964 with a decent dual exhaust, will put out 250 HP to the rear wheels....your GT3 in a good state of tune has to put out over 350 to the rear wheels, and GT3 car weight may even be a little lighter than a 993 NB coupe. That HP and lighter weight may be big delta for one's butt dyno. I have driven a 2003 GT3....good God, what incredible performance....I had an opportunity to buy this car...but I just couldn't part with the 993...350 HP may be too much for me. In about a week or so, I was able to suppress those feelings of performance exhilaration.

Transmission: The 964 has a 5 speed contrasted to a 6 speed on the 993 and GT3. Don't know the 964 transmission, but I do know the 993 gear ratios were sufficiently compromised by the EPA and DOT, or whomever that is that makes mileage fiats, such that it got to the point where the 2nd to 3rd gear lag on the 993 became very annoying, and the nearly useless (IMHO) too tall 6th gear became sufficiently annoying that I laid out the $$$ to re-gear 3rd through 6th. Oh lawdy, what a change, worth every penny.

Simple rules to follow if you want to remain content with your "ride". Present 993 owners, never drive a 993 that has short gears, you will henceforth be dissatisfied with your ride and feel compelled to fork out the $$$ for a tranny rear gear. 993 owners with short gears, don't drive a GT3 or a 996 Turbo....your stock 993 will feel greatly underpowered henceforth.

NC TRACKRAT

Find a nice 993 with relatively low mileage, nicely optioned and color to your liking and it will be a car you will want to keep forever. There's just something about 993's that are a balance between the old and the new that seems just right. The body is as good as it gets...a car that, when you park it, you'll walk away and look over your shoulder to admire it...as though a beautiful woman just walked by. Last of the air-cooled..."everybody wants one"!

pp000830

So Tell me Martin how did you get the title of "Member Extrodinair"
on Rennlist? Outstanding title. Also regearing 3-6 what is a reasonable cost for this and is it reasonable to regear 3-5 and leave 6 as a long arm overdrive for highway driving?

Pichu

Owned both 964 and now the 993. The 993 is soft and the 964 is more raw/alive. But I love the rear end of the 993, it's more controllable and (knock on wood) I have not spun the 993 unintentionally yet.

Both great cars.

Knight

I think you would have to drive both models to determine this for yourself. Your current combination is a good balance already of old vs new.

But look wise, since your in the 993 section you'll find most comment this is best looking 911.

soundbehindyou

Of course it is.........

tgil

Thanks for many detailed replies...very helpful and educational on both models. Other than the low production numbers of the 964, I really appreciate the last of the aircooled series and the enhancements/improvments made for the 993s.
Thanks again for time taken for responses to me.

Todd

ilko

Don't sell the 997 GT3 for a 993. Sell the SC and buy a 993.

With a 993 and 997 GT3 you get the best of the 911 world. It took me a while to get to this conclusion but it really is as good as it gets.

Valkuri

I've had one of each. Loved them both for different reasons: though, looking back, the one I'd buy back would be the 964.
Forget the "But the resale on the 9** has been going up by 20% per year, while it's only gone up 10% for the 9** and has peaked---" Who. Gives. A ****. It's an amour, not an investment.
Drive them both. Sit on a chair afterwards, and just stare at each one for awhile.
Then, buy the one that makes you happiest.

Tlaloc75

I've owned a 964 C4 Cab, a 964 RS America and now a 993 C2 coupe. I've spent considerable seat time in a 993 C4S and in a 993 Turbo S. Here are my thoughts on each, in the order I've experienced them:

- 1996 993 C4S: Car was about 1 year old when I started driving it. Beautiful looks! Had the M030 package and handling was absolutely sublime, felt like it couldn't put a foot wrong. I've read about significant understeer in these cars, but I never felt it no matter how hard I pushed it on the street. In an autox it would probably show up, but for street use, it was fantastic. With motorsound, the engine note had lots of character but acceleration was not up to par with the chassis. Felt like it could use another 50hp or minus a couple hundred pounds for the engine to match what the suspension felt capable of.

- 1990 964 C4 Cab: Car was about 8 years old when I owned it. Disappointing in almost every way. Top down was nice, but nothing like a miata or a boxster. You sit too low and the windshield is too close for it to feel like a truly open car. Car felt heavy (because it was) and it didn't handle well. Acceleration was lacking and it understeered heavily in spirited street driving. Drove for a year and then sold it to trade into a real 911 experience. I'd also driven an 88 cab and it felt much, much better. Light, spirited, open and fun. This 964 let me down.

- 1994 964 RS America: I owned this car when it was about 5 years old, bought it after driving another lightly modded RSA and falling in love. Stock suspension was not great. It was soft and harsh at the same time (hard to explain), clumsy, understeered in spirited driving and didn't like to rotate. I modified with uprated adjustable swaybars and drop links, lowering springs, more aggressive alignment, wider wheels/tires both front and rear, chip, drilled airbox. The result was thrilling on the track, fun in an autoX and great on smooth roads. Had plenty of grunt, the engine intake note was absolutely intoxicating at higher revs and it handled very well. It did feel like it wanted to bite back and you had to be careful off camber or on lumpy surfaces. Once I moved to an area with less smooth roads it started to show its warts. To get such great handling it was very stiff and because it was so stiff it couldn't maintain speed on sub-par pavement. I would regularly get out handled by more pedestrian cars like WRXs which was a little frustrating. Became a garage queen and eventually was sold. Before the huge price run up unfortunately.

- 1997 993 Turbo S: Drove the car when it was about 3 years old. Acceleration was insane, the engine pulled so hard passengers would complain of blood rushing around their bodies in weird ways . But the car felt heavy and it didn't handle nearly as well as the C4S or the RSA. Probably could have been modded to improve handling but it never was so I don't know. Beyond the fearsome acceleration the car wasn't actually that much fun. It lacked the nimble, lively feeling I'd come to crave in a 911. Hate to say it, but this car was a disappointment. I'd ridden in regular Turbos that felt better, so maybe it was just this car and how it was optioned.

- 1997 993 C2: Bought this car recently, so started driving it when it was 19 years old. Has M030 suspension with 18" wheels. This is my favorite. It handles as well as the C4S but is more engaging and lively, feels lighter and more playful. With motorsound it sounds as good as the RSA and pulls just as hard, maybe harder. Its more intoxicating at the top end as the engine keeps pulling harder where the RSA would start running out of breath - it really reaches for the redline. It is as lively and rotates as well as the RSA without being as punishing, on rough roads it just hangs on and gives me total confidence. Steering feel wasn't as good as RSA but after replacing control arm bushings and adding solid tierods its very close and much less tiring to drive given the power steering vs manual. I'm still chasing suspension bushings but it amazes me how close this nearly 20 year old 993 feels to what I remember from driving new ones. A little more wear, no new car smell, but if I didn't look at the odometer and just drove, I could easily fool myself into thinking I was back in 1998 driving a brand new car.

Turns out my dream car was always a 993 C2, its the holy grail I was chasing without knowing it. Has enough power to be fun and to suit the chassis. Has enough agility to be fun on every drive I take. Has enough composure and sophistication to never be tiring, always thrilling. Makes all the right noises and has all the right moves. I recently drove 1200 miles in the car over two days and I ended each day feeling fresh and happy. The next morning, trip complete, I woke up and the first thing I wanted to do was go for a spirited drive to enjoy another 'hit'. Not many cars can have that effect.

In my book, this is about as good as it gets. I'd love to try a GT3 or a true RS some day, but until then, my heart belongs to the 993 C2.

pp000830

An outstanding write-up
Andy

Hilltopper

Yup and will never sell my 1996 993 C4!!

Tlaloc75

Beautiful! I learned my lesson after selling the RSA. I had a 911 shaped hole in my life until I got the 993. Now I feel better.

How do you like your 997 C4S compared to your 993 C4? That was the other 911 model I was considering seriously but never had a chance to drive one.