Is the 993 a safe car?
10-29-2003, 01:44 AM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Dan,
I, too, think it is important to avoid drawing too much of a conclusion from any of this, but I do think that the 993's extraordinarily good showing in the HLDI report is significant. Although the 993 is less likely to be carrying a large number of passengers than a minivan, most accidents occur with only 1 or 2 occupants in the vehicle, so the number of seats probably doesn't, IMO, significantly affect the results.
Since the HLDI study is based on actual claims filings, which of course requires insurance, I think it is fair to say that very few injuries involving 993s go unclaimed since very few 993 drivers are uninsured. Although fatality rates are not covered separately in the HLDI report, fatal injury claims are included in the data. There is no data specifically listing fatality rates for any Porsche, as far as I know.
The "Comparison with Death Rates" section states that "serious and fatal injuries are relatively rare, so they have little influence on the insurance loss results reported here." So, serious and fatal injuries are part of the HLDI's ratings, though they do not comprise the bulk of the data points. This section also says, "Vehicles with high death rates often have high frequencies of insurance claims for injuries." It says that sports cars are an exception because, although they tend to have average frequency of injury claims, they "tend to have high death rates because they're more likely than most other models to be in high-speed single-vehicle crashes in which the risk of fatality is high." Overall, I think this takes little away from the 993's results because 1) the high-speed single-vehicle accident is a type that the driver has considerable ability to avoid, and 2) the 993 did extremely well, not merely average. It did better than every other sports car (including the highly regarded Mercedes-Benz SL), and almost every other vehicle regardless of category.
Needless to say, the increasing prevalence of SUVs makes me very uneasy, and the basic laws of physics will never go away. The overall picture is very complex. Not long ago I saw the results and pictures of the NHTSA's 40 mph offset barrier crash for two very different vehicles; the new Mini, and the Ford F-150. The tiny Mini did extremely well, with virtually no damage to the passenger compartment and excellent (low) deceleration readings from the test dummies. The big, tough F-150 comprehensively disintegrated -- the passenger compartment collapsed horribly, and the dummies showed grave results. These pictures should be available on the www.hwysafety.org site. There is no doubt in my mind that I would rather be in the Mini if I had to have that particular crash, or one similar to it. However, I'd take a seat in the F-150 if those two vehicles were going to have a head-on collision with each other and I had to be in one.
Derrick,
The HLDI results tend to be quite consistent across differently badged versions of the same car. The Ford Crown Victoria/Mercury Grand Marqius, Camaro/Firebird, and Grand Prix/Monte Carlo are some examples of essentially the same vehicles showing similar, if not identical, results.
Ultimately, I think this information is quite useful and strongly suggests that the 993 does a very good job of protecting its passengers if the worst happens. However, one cannot change the laws of physics, and we all need to keep that in mind at all times. Personally, I believe that the combination of a crashworthy structure combined with superb active safety makes the 993 a very safe car overall.
Have fun, but be careful out there.
I, too, think it is important to avoid drawing too much of a conclusion from any of this, but I do think that the 993's extraordinarily good showing in the HLDI report is significant. Although the 993 is less likely to be carrying a large number of passengers than a minivan, most accidents occur with only 1 or 2 occupants in the vehicle, so the number of seats probably doesn't, IMO, significantly affect the results.
Since the HLDI study is based on actual claims filings, which of course requires insurance, I think it is fair to say that very few injuries involving 993s go unclaimed since very few 993 drivers are uninsured. Although fatality rates are not covered separately in the HLDI report, fatal injury claims are included in the data. There is no data specifically listing fatality rates for any Porsche, as far as I know.
The "Comparison with Death Rates" section states that "serious and fatal injuries are relatively rare, so they have little influence on the insurance loss results reported here." So, serious and fatal injuries are part of the HLDI's ratings, though they do not comprise the bulk of the data points. This section also says, "Vehicles with high death rates often have high frequencies of insurance claims for injuries." It says that sports cars are an exception because, although they tend to have average frequency of injury claims, they "tend to have high death rates because they're more likely than most other models to be in high-speed single-vehicle crashes in which the risk of fatality is high." Overall, I think this takes little away from the 993's results because 1) the high-speed single-vehicle accident is a type that the driver has considerable ability to avoid, and 2) the 993 did extremely well, not merely average. It did better than every other sports car (including the highly regarded Mercedes-Benz SL), and almost every other vehicle regardless of category.
Needless to say, the increasing prevalence of SUVs makes me very uneasy, and the basic laws of physics will never go away. The overall picture is very complex. Not long ago I saw the results and pictures of the NHTSA's 40 mph offset barrier crash for two very different vehicles; the new Mini, and the Ford F-150. The tiny Mini did extremely well, with virtually no damage to the passenger compartment and excellent (low) deceleration readings from the test dummies. The big, tough F-150 comprehensively disintegrated -- the passenger compartment collapsed horribly, and the dummies showed grave results. These pictures should be available on the www.hwysafety.org site. There is no doubt in my mind that I would rather be in the Mini if I had to have that particular crash, or one similar to it. However, I'd take a seat in the F-150 if those two vehicles were going to have a head-on collision with each other and I had to be in one.
Derrick,
The HLDI results tend to be quite consistent across differently badged versions of the same car. The Ford Crown Victoria/Mercury Grand Marqius, Camaro/Firebird, and Grand Prix/Monte Carlo are some examples of essentially the same vehicles showing similar, if not identical, results.
Ultimately, I think this information is quite useful and strongly suggests that the 993 does a very good job of protecting its passengers if the worst happens. However, one cannot change the laws of physics, and we all need to keep that in mind at all times. Personally, I believe that the combination of a crashworthy structure combined with superb active safety makes the 993 a very safe car overall.
Have fun, but be careful out there.
10-29-2003, 05:51 AM
#17
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Pong,
If you are so worried about safety in the Porsche, there is a solution.
Follow the route of Ruf Racer and outfit your car with a complete rollcage, fire suppression system, and fuel cell. Outfit with real racing seats, and 6 point harness belts which are at least 3" wide to boot.
Rollcages (not rollbars) are not just for rollovers, it stiffens the chassis a lot and acts as a protective barrier for all kinds of collisions. Even if some moron in an SUV hits you, you will probably walk away much better than if you didn't have one.
That's what I'm planning to do very soon. All the things I mentioned will easily top $20K, but it's my life, so I figure it's probably worth it.
If you are so worried about safety in the Porsche, there is a solution.
Follow the route of Ruf Racer and outfit your car with a complete rollcage, fire suppression system, and fuel cell. Outfit with real racing seats, and 6 point harness belts which are at least 3" wide to boot.
Rollcages (not rollbars) are not just for rollovers, it stiffens the chassis a lot and acts as a protective barrier for all kinds of collisions. Even if some moron in an SUV hits you, you will probably walk away much better than if you didn't have one.
That's what I'm planning to do very soon. All the things I mentioned will easily top $20K, but it's my life, so I figure it's probably worth it.
10-29-2003, 11:55 AM
#18
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Hey Tyson,
Would love to see how your roll cage turn out. If it's unobtrusive, ala the RUF-R-turbo one, that can be installed close to the body frame work, I would seriousely consider it. However, I don't want to hinder ingress/egress. The car is tough enough to get in/out as it is.
Since I don't track, I'll pass on the fire supression stsytem and fuel cell. My wife makes sure that we have a fire extinguisher, blanket, emergency kit, food and water, in each car.
The car comes with Recaro A-8 Porsche racing seats, and four point Schrath belts.
CP
Would love to see how your roll cage turn out. If it's unobtrusive, ala the RUF-R-turbo one, that can be installed close to the body frame work, I would seriousely consider it. However, I don't want to hinder ingress/egress. The car is tough enough to get in/out as it is.
Since I don't track, I'll pass on the fire supression stsytem and fuel cell. My wife makes sure that we have a fire extinguisher, blanket, emergency kit, food and water, in each car.
The car comes with Recaro A-8 Porsche racing seats, and four point Schrath belts.
CP
10-29-2003, 12:50 PM
#19
I am unconvinced that a roll cage in a street car is a good idea, unless you plan on wearing a helmet at all times.
10-29-2003, 05:56 PM
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My rollcage will be built similar to the Ruf Integrated Roll Cage, but may turn out even better. The cage alone will cost about $10K.
PeterS, obviously you have not seen the Ruf IRC.
If you design it right and pad it in the right areas, it should be fine for the street.
Pong, 4-point belts are ok, but 6-point is even better, especially with the anti-submarining belt. Also make sure that all belts, including the lap ones, are 3". The seats I have on order are kevlar seats (Cobra Suzuka), both lightweight and very stiff.
Personally, I wouldn't skimp on the fuel cell or the fire suppression system... but then again I'm a little more obsessed than most people.
PeterS, obviously you have not seen the Ruf IRC.
If you design it right and pad it in the right areas, it should be fine for the street.
Pong, 4-point belts are ok, but 6-point is even better, especially with the anti-submarining belt. Also make sure that all belts, including the lap ones, are 3". The seats I have on order are kevlar seats (Cobra Suzuka), both lightweight and very stiff.
Personally, I wouldn't skimp on the fuel cell or the fire suppression system... but then again I'm a little more obsessed than most people.
10-30-2003, 12:20 AM
#21
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i am with peterS, having a roll cage while not wearing 6 or 5 pt harness is deadly.
4 point harness is NOT ok.
4 point harness is NOT ok.
10-30-2003, 12:01 PM
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When I wrecked my car this fall wearing a five point harness, a Bell M2 and a neck brace, my head still hit the side bar on the roll cage hard enough that I saw stars like I've never seen stars before. The bar was covered with the high density foam. I haven't seen the Ruf setup but I would be pretty reluctant to have a cage without a helmet. Jim
10-30-2003, 12:11 PM
#23
Race Director
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But Guys,
I'm only talking about driving on the freeway, up and down I5 mostly. Isn't a roll cage, a helmet, 5/6 point belts, etc. etc. a little extreme?
CP
I'm only talking about driving on the freeway, up and down I5 mostly. Isn't a roll cage, a helmet, 5/6 point belts, etc. etc. a little extreme?
CP
10-30-2003, 03:36 PM
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Back to the original question...also keep in mind that the German cars have been designed pretty much from Day 1 with the Autobahn in mind. I actually watched a Discovery Channel thing on the Autobahn, and they profiled Porsche specifically, and mentiond BMW & Mercedes, in regard to the fact that they were designed for accident survival in high speed situations.
Yes, they started in 63, but they have been redesigned significantly since then, and Porsche doesn't do things half-assed. If it goes fast, it stops fast. If it hits something, they assume it will be fast, and they design appropriately. Despite their size, in a 2 door car there is likely no car I would rather be in in an accident if I actually needed to be concerned for my safety, but of course I'm neither an automotive engineer nor a highway engineer. Enjoy.
Yes, they started in 63, but they have been redesigned significantly since then, and Porsche doesn't do things half-assed. If it goes fast, it stops fast. If it hits something, they assume it will be fast, and they design appropriately. Despite their size, in a 2 door car there is likely no car I would rather be in in an accident if I actually needed to be concerned for my safety, but of course I'm neither an automotive engineer nor a highway engineer. Enjoy.
10-30-2003, 05:40 PM
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"I'm only talking about driving on the freeway, up and down I5 mostly. Isn't a roll cage, a helmet, 5/6 point belts, etc. etc. a little extreme?"
yes, it is extreme.
however, i think the point most of the reply is trying to say is that 993 IS a very safe car. but safe car also needs a safe driver at the helm.
IF, one wants a roll cage (don't know the RUF integrated one) for use on street, it's really not as safe as you think it would be, unless you are wearing helmet and tightly harnessed. if one doesn't want to wear helmet or tightly wrapped up in 4-5-6 pt harness, then perhaps a full on roll cage is not the best solution for the street.
street is very very different than DE and DE is very very very different than racing. i am not just talking about speed here!
yes, it is extreme.
however, i think the point most of the reply is trying to say is that 993 IS a very safe car. but safe car also needs a safe driver at the helm.
IF, one wants a roll cage (don't know the RUF integrated one) for use on street, it's really not as safe as you think it would be, unless you are wearing helmet and tightly harnessed. if one doesn't want to wear helmet or tightly wrapped up in 4-5-6 pt harness, then perhaps a full on roll cage is not the best solution for the street.
street is very very different than DE and DE is very very very different than racing. i am not just talking about speed here!
10-31-2003, 01:00 AM
#26
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Pong, I'm pretty sure 993 is a safe car. And since you don't drive on the track, I doubt it that you need a rollcage in your car (unless you're driving with a helmet, like others said).
As far as getting into an accident where anything can happen, there is no guarantee that you can walk away from the accident w/o a scratch... IMHO you can always try to be careful on your part, the rest is up to God
In a nutshell, there are too many things that we can worry in life. Sometimes it's best not to worry too much (sometimes I worry too much too). "Everybody dies... but not everybody lives" - William Wallace in Braveheart
As far as getting into an accident where anything can happen, there is no guarantee that you can walk away from the accident w/o a scratch... IMHO you can always try to be careful on your part, the rest is up to God
In a nutshell, there are too many things that we can worry in life. Sometimes it's best not to worry too much (sometimes I worry too much too). "Everybody dies... but not everybody lives" - William Wallace in Braveheart
Last edited by Suwipin; 10-31-2003 at 03:33 AM.
10-31-2003, 09:40 AM
#27
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Hi CP,
I hit a crash barrier at about 90mph in my old car (3.2) and was expecting major injuries. However, not only was the tub still intact I was able to start the car and move it off of the road. One wing got crunched at the front and the tub twisted slightly but otherwise the car was fine and after some work on a jig, new panels it was fine. For an old design it seems incredibly well built from a safety standpoint.
Cheers,
David
I hit a crash barrier at about 90mph in my old car (3.2) and was expecting major injuries. However, not only was the tub still intact I was able to start the car and move it off of the road. One wing got crunched at the front and the tub twisted slightly but otherwise the car was fine and after some work on a jig, new panels it was fine. For an old design it seems incredibly well built from a safety standpoint.
Cheers,
David
