why can't an air cooled porsche be offererd again?
#31
well, interesting perspectives in this thread. quad and others have already put the "reliability" controversy to bed. however, i believe if they re-released the 993, they'd be gone/spoken for before they even hit the showrooms just like the 911R. there IS a reason the aircooled market has gone f'n bananas the last few years. there IS a reason they started the "classic" division; it's called demand. 964's historically, were maligned and undervalued. no longer. anyone think this will happen with a 996? a 997? (excluding the GT versions, which are truly special) what was the catalyst for the aircooled market going berserk?
9M, Steve W., Rothsport, 911 design, and others have proven you can build a powerful and clean aircooled engine using better internals and modern engine management technology. the factory couldn't do the same?? throw a re-gear in the mix and you have an aircooled car that can hold its own.
the saving grace is, if you have the means you can have just such an aircooled gem, i.e., paul's, frank's, or wilber's 964's...Macan's 993. aircooled monsters!
9M, Steve W., Rothsport, 911 design, and others have proven you can build a powerful and clean aircooled engine using better internals and modern engine management technology. the factory couldn't do the same?? throw a re-gear in the mix and you have an aircooled car that can hold its own.
the saving grace is, if you have the means you can have just such an aircooled gem, i.e., paul's, frank's, or wilber's 964's...Macan's 993. aircooled monsters!
#32
Well. A law recently changedthat allows a limited production of cars that do not conform to federal standards. I wonder what the law means for large companies that desire to sell a small number of "special" models every year.
I think a small spinoff of Porsche could make boatloads of money by selling factory-new 930s, longhoods, and race replicas with modern motors. There's no reason they couldn't be built and sold for significantly less than the market prices on the rare classics.
I would trade my two 3.2 coupes for a zero-miles 930 with a 991 motor and air conditioning faster than you could say "But it's not a real 930 blah blah blah..."
If anyone else is listening, I would also trade my E30 M3 for a 2002 with an N26...or a '67 Camaro with an LT1 and a proper suspension, but I digress...
I think a small spinoff of Porsche could make boatloads of money by selling factory-new 930s, longhoods, and race replicas with modern motors. There's no reason they couldn't be built and sold for significantly less than the market prices on the rare classics.
I would trade my two 3.2 coupes for a zero-miles 930 with a 991 motor and air conditioning faster than you could say "But it's not a real 930 blah blah blah..."
If anyone else is listening, I would also trade my E30 M3 for a 2002 with an N26...or a '67 Camaro with an LT1 and a proper suspension, but I digress...
#33
Despite that new law, none of the air-cooled engine meets current emissions regulations (which get tougher every year until 2025) and its simply not possible to make them comply anymore. Current EPA specification are much tougher than what they were in 1998.
Reliability, durability & longevity were never an issue with the air-cooled models,...the only water-cooled engine that rivaled their sheer durability were the Mezger-designed Twin-Turbo & GT-3 ones. We'll know in 10 years whether the new 9A1/9A2 engine has the same reputation or not.
The other reason why Porsche will not make air-cooled engines any longer is cost. Its simply impossible to produce one nowadays to a similar cost-point without major compromises in component quality (which we already see a lot of). Building a reliable, durable high-HP air-cooled engine, is not inexpensive and the market is pretty small. We do such things all the time and 400+ HP engines are all $50K+.
There might be a demand for the older cars powered by late-model water-cooled motors, however I've not seen any evidence of that in our business. There are plenty of challenges to that which challenge cost-effectiveness and recovery.
Reliability, durability & longevity were never an issue with the air-cooled models,...the only water-cooled engine that rivaled their sheer durability were the Mezger-designed Twin-Turbo & GT-3 ones. We'll know in 10 years whether the new 9A1/9A2 engine has the same reputation or not.
The other reason why Porsche will not make air-cooled engines any longer is cost. Its simply impossible to produce one nowadays to a similar cost-point without major compromises in component quality (which we already see a lot of). Building a reliable, durable high-HP air-cooled engine, is not inexpensive and the market is pretty small. We do such things all the time and 400+ HP engines are all $50K+.
There might be a demand for the older cars powered by late-model water-cooled motors, however I've not seen any evidence of that in our business. There are plenty of challenges to that which challenge cost-effectiveness and recovery.
#35
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 17,108
Likes: 259
From: Somewhere in a galaxy far, far away....
jag remade the classic E and XKSS of the 60's
Shelby remade the CSX cobras of the 60'
It is not easy to get around crash testing and EPA etc...
Im sure Porsche could at least bang out a few more 356 speedsters...
As to the 993.
To take the modern assembly line and manufacturing process of the porsche factory and turn back time would be a lot of work. For a short run of cars it wouldnt be worth it. Especially where they are already commited to short runs of cars.
emissions and saftey ratings would be difficult.
Easier to restore a car the remanufacture it.
One can dream however
Shelby remade the CSX cobras of the 60'
It is not easy to get around crash testing and EPA etc...
Im sure Porsche could at least bang out a few more 356 speedsters...
As to the 993.
To take the modern assembly line and manufacturing process of the porsche factory and turn back time would be a lot of work. For a short run of cars it wouldnt be worth it. Especially where they are already commited to short runs of cars.
emissions and saftey ratings would be difficult.
Easier to restore a car the remanufacture it.
One can dream however
Last edited by tcsracing1; 04-03-2016 at 09:11 AM.
#36
#38
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 43,566
Likes: 5,898
From: san francisco
steve is right. it's not reliability, every thing boils downs to $
you want new air cooled. singer is NEW.
you want a 993 from factory? sloan has one thats < 300 miles.
you must have one done at factory today? 20MM, i am pretty sure, PAG will bend over backwards and do you one. if not, try 40MM.
you want new air cooled. singer is NEW.
you want a 993 from factory? sloan has one thats < 300 miles.
you must have one done at factory today? 20MM, i am pretty sure, PAG will bend over backwards and do you one. if not, try 40MM.
#39
There is a company called Singer doing exactly what the threadstarter asks for!
And if porsche have some old bodies lurking it is possible that they some day will do the same as jaguar!
Can you imagine a brand new green 1973 911 RS!
And if porsche have some old bodies lurking it is possible that they some day will do the same as jaguar!
Can you imagine a brand new green 1973 911 RS!
#42
why not air cooled.
Probably questions for Steve and Ken...
Why can't air-cooled auto engines not meet current and future emission standards?
I wonder how air-cooled airplane engines have escaped emmssion standards, andare still manufactured>
Thanks, Fred
Why can't air-cooled auto engines not meet current and future emission standards?
I wonder how air-cooled airplane engines have escaped emmssion standards, andare still manufactured>
Thanks, Fred
#44
And you know money, and spending it on cars, is something I do sparingly. (Seem to be in home renovation hell, soon to be followed by apartment building hunting. 2016 will probably be shown the door with barely 1-of-6 911s running.)
#45
Sure. But a '73 RS ain't "all that." You're hostage to a serial number X 1 million, versus even any 964/993. Hell, even in 2000 my hey-I-can't-believe-a-guy-gave-me-$20K-for-my-'73S was sold because I would have had to flare it to max it out for Club Racing.