Will an alignment solve my steering issues?
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 998
Likes: 7
From: MTL, Qc Canada
UPDATE
I went to Grand Motors in Montreal (thanks to Kacey for the reference). They did an alignement but the kinematic toe did not require too much adjustment. The tire pressure was also low.
The car handles way better now! Not perfect as I kind of felt the car was going to slip while driving fast in a highway entrance but maybe it's normal.
The steering feeling is much better and under control.
As the shop suggested, I will replace the control arm bushings with FD's and I should feel an improvement.
I went to Grand Motors in Montreal (thanks to Kacey for the reference). They did an alignement but the kinematic toe did not require too much adjustment. The tire pressure was also low.
The car handles way better now! Not perfect as I kind of felt the car was going to slip while driving fast in a highway entrance but maybe it's normal.
The steering feeling is much better and under control.
As the shop suggested, I will replace the control arm bushings with FD's and I should feel an improvement.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 998
Likes: 7
From: MTL, Qc Canada
Garage told me since I replaced the ball joints it does affect a lot the alignement. Toe was not that much out but the alignement did correct the bad steering wheel feeling by 90%. The other 10% will be with FD control arm bushing. I ordered it and will update once installed.
Racer
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 473
Likes: 1
To pile on with some recent experience, after installing PSS9's, Walrods, and other suspension components my car felt terrible...... The car was set too low for the stock Carrera wheel carriers. After adjusting the height back to "euro" height, it's as great as it should be.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,312
Likes: 10
From: Roseville, CA
Now, to your specific question, I don't think it gets totally out of hand until you're about 1/2" above RS specs. Even then, years ago I got a hold of one of the first 964s out here in the Bay Area to do some shakedown work on. Absurdly low. We were still able to run the car on the track record. Ultimately, just depends on how comfortable you are working it. On the street? More likely crappy roads with proper ride height will be more annoying.
One caveat is that stupid low leading to bump steer + bottoming the suspension is a nasty that I don't think anyone here at our (lack of) skill level can regularly survive.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 843
Likes: 272
From: Michigan
UPDATE
I went to Grand Motors in Montreal (thanks to Kacey for the reference). They did an alignement but the kinematic toe did not require too much adjustment. The tire pressure was also low.
The car handles way better now! Not perfect as I kind of felt the car was going to slip while driving fast in a highway entrance but maybe it's normal.
The steering feeling is much better and under control.
As the shop suggested, I will replace the control arm bushings with FD's and I should feel an improvement.
I went to Grand Motors in Montreal (thanks to Kacey for the reference). They did an alignement but the kinematic toe did not require too much adjustment. The tire pressure was also low.
The car handles way better now! Not perfect as I kind of felt the car was going to slip while driving fast in a highway entrance but maybe it's normal.
The steering feeling is much better and under control.
As the shop suggested, I will replace the control arm bushings with FD's and I should feel an improvement.
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 105
Likes: 8
I'm posting here to avoid starting a new thread. I have a very weird situation with my 4s. Ride height and alignment have been performed about one month ago, but I haven't really driven the car since.
Two days ago I noticed that the rear wheels are not similarly distanced from the rear wing. I thought it was an optical illusion, but it soon become clear it's not.
In addition, on the wheel that does not seem to sit properly, the ride height is also lower, so much so that for certain bumps the tire rubs against the inner wheel arch.
I have measure the distance from center hub cap to center hub cap and there is a 3.5 cm (~ 1.38 in) difference between the right side vs the left side.
I'll take the car to the shop, but until then a few questions because I am in a maximum panic attack mode:
(1) Does wheel alignment also affect ride height in any way?
(2) Is it possible that just from wheel alignment you can end up with a 3.5 cm difference RS vs LS?
My current theory is that eccentrics have not been properly torqued when doing the alignment. In fact, the mechanic told me that he hadn't tightened them hardly because he anticipated that further fine-tuning would be required.
I didn't however expect him to torque them so that they may actually move.
I appreciate any feedback. I was quite stressed initially because I thought the car might have been in a major accident, but the fact that (a) the alignment was ok at first; and (b) there is no sign of major accident have helped me relax a little bit.
Two days ago I noticed that the rear wheels are not similarly distanced from the rear wing. I thought it was an optical illusion, but it soon become clear it's not.
In addition, on the wheel that does not seem to sit properly, the ride height is also lower, so much so that for certain bumps the tire rubs against the inner wheel arch.
I have measure the distance from center hub cap to center hub cap and there is a 3.5 cm (~ 1.38 in) difference between the right side vs the left side.
I'll take the car to the shop, but until then a few questions because I am in a maximum panic attack mode:
(1) Does wheel alignment also affect ride height in any way?
(2) Is it possible that just from wheel alignment you can end up with a 3.5 cm difference RS vs LS?
My current theory is that eccentrics have not been properly torqued when doing the alignment. In fact, the mechanic told me that he hadn't tightened them hardly because he anticipated that further fine-tuning would be required.
I didn't however expect him to torque them so that they may actually move.
I appreciate any feedback. I was quite stressed initially because I thought the car might have been in a major accident, but the fact that (a) the alignment was ok at first; and (b) there is no sign of major accident have helped me relax a little bit.
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Drifting
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 26
From: Hales Corners, WI
I read somewhere that the body of the 993 is positioned slightly to one side of the vehicle (not sure which side). Meaning, it's not centered between the wheels. Unfortunately, I cannot remember where I read it. Maybe someone with more knowledge can chime in on this. I think your ok.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 978
Likes: 15
From: Earth
Seems like a crappy alignment job to me!
3.5cm seems like a lot! I would guess it should be in the order of a few millimeters...
FYI, when I first installed my BBS LMs with 285s on the car, I was not running enough negative camber in the rear for such wide tires. As a result, only the driver's side rubbed a few times (upper right corner of the inner fender lip, when facing the wheel center cap)...
It took serious road bumps to rub. It rarely happened, and never did any damage to the paint... We're talking 1mm by 2 inches long black mark on the inside of the outer lip!
After replacing my front bushings, I decided to completely change the front and rear alignment values, to modify the behavior of my car.
The result: the car better matches my driving style, and as an added bonus, an 1/8" decrease in camber in the rear also made the rare occasional rubbing disappear!
In short: I suspect there is indeed a slight alignment offset...
As far as the initial post. From experience, alignment values aside, the front LCA bushings have a great impact on the steering feel. At almost 20 years old, they are most likely to contribute to the vagueness one would feel at freeway speeds...
3.5cm seems like a lot! I would guess it should be in the order of a few millimeters...
FYI, when I first installed my BBS LMs with 285s on the car, I was not running enough negative camber in the rear for such wide tires. As a result, only the driver's side rubbed a few times (upper right corner of the inner fender lip, when facing the wheel center cap)...
It took serious road bumps to rub. It rarely happened, and never did any damage to the paint... We're talking 1mm by 2 inches long black mark on the inside of the outer lip!
After replacing my front bushings, I decided to completely change the front and rear alignment values, to modify the behavior of my car.
The result: the car better matches my driving style, and as an added bonus, an 1/8" decrease in camber in the rear also made the rare occasional rubbing disappear!
In short: I suspect there is indeed a slight alignment offset...
As far as the initial post. From experience, alignment values aside, the front LCA bushings have a great impact on the steering feel. At almost 20 years old, they are most likely to contribute to the vagueness one would feel at freeway speeds...
Instructor
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 157
Likes: 2
From: Ottawa, Canada
From your post it sounds like you haven't replaced the control arm bushings! This makes a huge difference. I used/installed the Elephant Sport control arm bushings, after which had the P dealer do the alignment. Is drives like a new car now, can't believe how nice it drives, wow!
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 105
Likes: 8
@CaptainGSR & ble2011: Thanks for the replies. Another cause for this might be due to a potential deformation of all rear subframe components.
As I installed new Rennline subframe bushings I had everything taken out, sand blasted and then electrostatically painted.
To do this, the components had to sit at 200 degrees Celsius for about 30 mins. Given that in order to slip in a new bearing you need to do the same, I would have thought that it's safe, but who knows.
Although if they had deformed I assume that they wouldn't fit together as perfectly as they did.
As I installed new Rennline subframe bushings I had everything taken out, sand blasted and then electrostatically painted.
To do this, the components had to sit at 200 degrees Celsius for about 30 mins. Given that in order to slip in a new bearing you need to do the same, I would have thought that it's safe, but who knows.
Although if they had deformed I assume that they wouldn't fit together as perfectly as they did.
Last edited by uberlawyer; Jun 1, 2015 at 04:53 PM.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 998
Likes: 7
From: MTL, Qc Canada
From your post it sounds like you haven't replaced the control arm bushings! This makes a huge difference. I used/installed the Elephant Sport control arm bushings, after which had the P dealer do the alignment. Is drives like a new car now, can't believe how nice it drives, wow!
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 105
Likes: 8
Update: the mechanic tells me that the bolts holding the subframe together are also eccentrics - please see attached pic.
This is very intriguing as basically they can shift the entire rear axle around.
I haven't been able to find any instructions in the service manual on that - under section 42 it only says that the crossmembers do not need to be removed.
Unless I receive some clear advice, I would incline to fix both rear subframes in such a way that they are equally distanced from a clear reference point (e.g. front control arms).
Any thoughts?
CORRECTION: the bolts are NOT eccentrics, but the Rennline bushings have an oval hole that allows room for adjustment.
CORRECTION 2 (because the mechanics have provided yet more inaccurate info): the hole in the bushing is round, but the diameter of the hole is 16 mm, whereas the diameter of the bolt is 12 mm (as per the actual bolt and Porsche's parts manual). Therefore, there may be some room for adjustment.
This is very intriguing as basically they can shift the entire rear axle around.
I haven't been able to find any instructions in the service manual on that - under section 42 it only says that the crossmembers do not need to be removed.
Unless I receive some clear advice, I would incline to fix both rear subframes in such a way that they are equally distanced from a clear reference point (e.g. front control arms).
Any thoughts?
CORRECTION: the bolts are NOT eccentrics, but the Rennline bushings have an oval hole that allows room for adjustment.
CORRECTION 2 (because the mechanics have provided yet more inaccurate info): the hole in the bushing is round, but the diameter of the hole is 16 mm, whereas the diameter of the bolt is 12 mm (as per the actual bolt and Porsche's parts manual). Therefore, there may be some room for adjustment.
Last edited by uberlawyer; Jun 2, 2015 at 06:58 AM.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,484
Likes: 20
From: Central California
Update: the mechanic tells me that the bolts holding the subframe together are also eccentrics - please see attached pic.
This is very intriguing as basically they can shift the entire rear axle around.
I haven't been able to find any instructions in the service manual on that - under section 42 it only says that the crossmembers do not need to be removed.
Unless I receive some clear advice, I would incline to fix both rear subframes in such a way that they are equally distanced from a clear reference point (e.g. front control arms).
Any thoughts?
CORRECTION: the bolts are NOT eccentrics, but the Rennline bushings have an oval hole that allows room for adjustment.
CORRECTION 2 (because the mechanics have provided yet more inaccurate info): the hole in the bushing is round, but the diameter of the hole is 16 mm, whereas the diameter of the bolt is 12 mm (as per the actual bolt and Porsche's parts manual). Therefore, there may be some room for adjustment.
This is very intriguing as basically they can shift the entire rear axle around.
I haven't been able to find any instructions in the service manual on that - under section 42 it only says that the crossmembers do not need to be removed.
Unless I receive some clear advice, I would incline to fix both rear subframes in such a way that they are equally distanced from a clear reference point (e.g. front control arms).
Any thoughts?
CORRECTION: the bolts are NOT eccentrics, but the Rennline bushings have an oval hole that allows room for adjustment.
CORRECTION 2 (because the mechanics have provided yet more inaccurate info): the hole in the bushing is round, but the diameter of the hole is 16 mm, whereas the diameter of the bolt is 12 mm (as per the actual bolt and Porsche's parts manual). Therefore, there may be some room for adjustment.
The Rennline kit should have come with the required bolts. It's only the top "hats" that have the larger holes. The subframe mounts/bushings are the correct size and the mount should not affect where your subframe was mounted. Any amount of "play" would be negligible and surely not noticeable to the eye.