To Walrod or not to Walrod? That is the question.
07-03-2014, 08:02 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
So as some know already, my 993 is in the shop getting a new steering rack and suspension kit installed. I already have a set of Walrod a-arm bushings that I bought from a fellow RLer, assuming my a-arm bushings would be totally shot.
After getting the car up on a lift, it turns out the OEM a-arm bushings on my 993 are fine. Shocking given the age and mileage of ~160k miles. They must have been replaced at some point in the past. I'm glad to know some items were taken car of properly by previous owners. (I lack past service records on the car and the dealer where most of the repairs took place changed ownership/lost the records.)
So I'm left with a dilemma: Do I have the Walrod bushings installed as a "while we're in there" mod for improved handling? Or do I pass on this mod now and wait until the a-arm bushings really need attention?
My mechanic estimates it will require about 4-hours of labor to swap-out the bushings. This sounds about right based upon what I've heard from other shops. The hourly rate is $120 so this "while we're in there" would cost about $500 to complete.
There are plenty of other places where I could be putting that money, such as Fister exhaust, fixing up the non-operational stereo system, or getting some proper tires for my 18" wheels, which makes me tempted to pass up on this mod. Alternatively, I'm all for preventative maintenance and the "do it once and be done" approach.
Currently this 993 will be used 99% of the time for spirited street driving. The remaining 1% will be an occasional AX or DE as I dip my toes further into that world.
Will the Walrod's bushings be the best bang-for-my-buck, or would it be wiser to invest that $500 elsewhere in the car?
After getting the car up on a lift, it turns out the OEM a-arm bushings on my 993 are fine. Shocking given the age and mileage of ~160k miles. They must have been replaced at some point in the past. I'm glad to know some items were taken car of properly by previous owners. (I lack past service records on the car and the dealer where most of the repairs took place changed ownership/lost the records.)
So I'm left with a dilemma: Do I have the Walrod bushings installed as a "while we're in there" mod for improved handling? Or do I pass on this mod now and wait until the a-arm bushings really need attention?
My mechanic estimates it will require about 4-hours of labor to swap-out the bushings. This sounds about right based upon what I've heard from other shops. The hourly rate is $120 so this "while we're in there" would cost about $500 to complete.
There are plenty of other places where I could be putting that money, such as Fister exhaust, fixing up the non-operational stereo system, or getting some proper tires for my 18" wheels, which makes me tempted to pass up on this mod. Alternatively, I'm all for preventative maintenance and the "do it once and be done" approach.
Currently this 993 will be used 99% of the time for spirited street driving. The remaining 1% will be an occasional AX or DE as I dip my toes further into that world.
Will the Walrod's bushings be the best bang-for-my-buck, or would it be wiser to invest that $500 elsewhere in the car?
if current bushings are good, you will notice little other than depleted wallet syndrome.
Chris designed / manufactured these to replace rotted rubber bushes.
enjoy the fisters!
ps. I installed the walrods because @ 22K my rubber was obviously going away.
difficult to believe yours are still good.
pps Just think how "cheap" it would be if you did the work yourself!
07-03-2014, 08:18 PM
#32
Drifting
Thread Starter
Thanks for the thoughts. I'd love to DIY my 993 repairs as much as I can. I don't have a dedicated garage space with an abundance of proper Porsche spec'd tools so this makes DIY hard. I am going to DIY my tie-rod pinning, and I'll probably DIY a lot of the cosmetic work.
There is a strong desire on my part to DIY as much as I can; however, sometimes its easier to just pay the guy who has the lift/tools/prior experience.
There is a strong desire on my part to DIY as much as I can; however, sometimes its easier to just pay the guy who has the lift/tools/prior experience.
07-03-2014, 08:37 PM
#33
Drifting
Thread Starter
I wouldn't change a thing on a stock car until I could do the system front and rear
I'd want matching components to get the most predictable results, ie all stock, all RS or all mono-ball(there are some parts that can be individually used but you on't get the full benefit that way)
If I had $500 to throw at a stockish car I'd buy RS f/r sway bars first, do the shock tops next, followed by the RS wheel carriers and rear solid sides then do all the horizontal arms as a coordinated system, for street RS or RS+(4 sport bushes in front) or RS++(swap in mono-ball rear toe arms), for track all mono-ball w/ some really good modern shocks.
I'd want matching components to get the most predictable results, ie all stock, all RS or all mono-ball(there are some parts that can be individually used but you on't get the full benefit that way)
If I had $500 to throw at a stockish car I'd buy RS f/r sway bars first, do the shock tops next, followed by the RS wheel carriers and rear solid sides then do all the horizontal arms as a coordinated system, for street RS or RS+(4 sport bushes in front) or RS++(swap in mono-ball rear toe arms), for track all mono-ball w/ some really good modern shocks.
In my situation money is definitely an issue. While I'd love to do it right and start with a PSS10 (or better) and RS+ or RS++ setup, I cannot afford all that right here and now. The struts have to be replaced now. Same with the steering rack/tie-rods. I'd rather swap the bushings out early, than find 5k/1-year from now they OE ones are worn out and need replacement too.
Beyond suspension, there are plenty of other bits that need fixing/upgrading on this car too. When I'm ready (and can afford) to turn my 993 into a track beast, you'll definitely be one of the first that I approach for advice.
07-03-2014, 09:46 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
No doubt your reply is spot on Bill. The fact is, the fronts seem to offer the most negative feedback on the street, when they are shot. And by now, most are. The Walrods aren't just about $, IMO, but also very much about them being simple and effective in refreshing the control arm bits in front. I also think they caught on as well as they did, as Chris came up with an option here, ahead of others like Elephant. For the record, I am an Elephant fan, as I had Chuck's goodies throughout my 911. It's hard to argue PU as an effective suspension material.
07-04-2014, 12:00 AM
#35
Rennlist Member
I realize this is not necessarily OT on a query about mere front bushing replacement. Just that my belief is that near-100% showroom stock tends to be superior to most any non-comprehensive modification scheme.
07-04-2014, 12:30 AM
#36
Rennlist Member
Would new bits in the rear make it better? I'm sure they would. The fronts were what was causing me a noticeable issue in ride.
07-04-2014, 12:39 AM
#37
Rennlist Member
Hard to find '95-98 cars in US that are anywhere near Showroom Stock condition in 2014. My '95 was delivered over 20 years ago now. I can attest to the fact that the 3 or so hours and $100 spent on Walrod bushings a couple of years ago was worth every minute and penny.
Would new bits in the rear make it better? I'm sure they would. The fronts were what was causing me a noticeable issue in ride.
Would new bits in the rear make it better? I'm sure they would. The fronts were what was causing me a noticeable issue in ride.
Put another way, if stock Porsche arms with new bushings installed were $1.99/side, would we be talking about deviating from OE stock for the typical street driven car?
(Specific to bushings, I kinda went through this with a guy up here who was trying to get into the exchange A-arm biz on the torsion bar cars ~25 years ago. Then Dwight Mitchell sort of cornered the market on the rear spring plate bushings, and the promise of similar for the fronts derailed the other guy's enthusiasm.)
07-04-2014, 01:45 PM
#38
Hard to find '95-98 cars in US that are anywhere near Showroom Stock condition in 2014. My '95 was delivered over 20 years ago now. I can attest to the fact that the 3 or so hours and $100 spent on Walrod bushings a couple of years ago was worth every minute and penny. Would new bits in the rear make it better? I'm sure they would. The fronts were what was causing me a noticeable issue in ride.
07-08-2014, 08:05 PM
#39
Drifting
Thread Starter
So here are the latest developments from my mechanic now that the car is on the lift and being pulled apart. The following parts are all shot and need replacement:
Front Sway bar drop links (left and right)
Front and Rear shock mounts
Front Ball Joints on A-arms (separate from Walrod replacement)
Rear Toe Arms
Because there are so many additional suspension parts needing replacement (and the price differential isn't that much between OEM replacement parts and aftermarket performance parts), I am wondering what to do here? Go with OEM replacements? Go with Tarett or Rennline components? Camber plates rather than OEM rubber top mounts?
Again I'm looking for mostly street use and not wanting (nor able to afford) to invest in a whole RS suspension conversion at this time. I feel silly paying the same price or higher for OEM rubber parts when the performance parts are readily available and sometimes cheaper.
Any thoughts?
Front Sway bar drop links (left and right)
Front and Rear shock mounts
Front Ball Joints on A-arms (separate from Walrod replacement)
Rear Toe Arms
Because there are so many additional suspension parts needing replacement (and the price differential isn't that much between OEM replacement parts and aftermarket performance parts), I am wondering what to do here? Go with OEM replacements? Go with Tarett or Rennline components? Camber plates rather than OEM rubber top mounts?
Again I'm looking for mostly street use and not wanting (nor able to afford) to invest in a whole RS suspension conversion at this time. I feel silly paying the same price or higher for OEM rubber parts when the performance parts are readily available and sometimes cheaper.
Any thoughts?
07-08-2014, 08:24 PM
#40
So here are the latest developments from my mechanic now that the car is on the lift and being pulled apart. The following parts are all shot and need replacement:
Front Sway bar drop links (left and right)
Front and Rear shock mounts
Front Ball Joints on A-arms (separate from Walrod replacement)
Rear Toe Arms
Because there are so many additional suspension parts needing replacement (and the price differential isn't that much between OEM replacement parts and aftermarket performance parts), I am wondering what to do here? Go with OEM replacements? Go with Tarett or Rennline components? Camber plates rather than OEM rubber top mounts?
Again I'm looking for mostly street use and not wanting (nor able to afford) to invest in a whole RS suspension conversion at this time. I feel silly paying the same price or higher for OEM rubber parts when the performance parts are readily available and sometimes cheaper.
Any thoughts?
Front Sway bar drop links (left and right)
Front and Rear shock mounts
Front Ball Joints on A-arms (separate from Walrod replacement)
Rear Toe Arms
Because there are so many additional suspension parts needing replacement (and the price differential isn't that much between OEM replacement parts and aftermarket performance parts), I am wondering what to do here? Go with OEM replacements? Go with Tarett or Rennline components? Camber plates rather than OEM rubber top mounts?
Again I'm looking for mostly street use and not wanting (nor able to afford) to invest in a whole RS suspension conversion at this time. I feel silly paying the same price or higher for OEM rubber parts when the performance parts are readily available and sometimes cheaper.
Any thoughts?
But you are already sold on the Walrod fronts(a pseodo race part) so have at it.
These cars oe suspensions are old and worn, all of the parts likely need replacement, do it all at once and do a systems approach, don't just throw a piece here and a non matching piece there.
RS+1, mono-ball shock tops w/ seals(Elephant or Rennline or RS oe), Elephant sports on the front A-arms( all legs), RS rear track arm, RS KT arm, new stock toe and camber arms), probably new shocks too.
You will be soooo happy
07-08-2014, 08:32 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
So here are the latest developments from my mechanic now that the car is on the lift and being pulled apart. The following parts are all shot and need replacement:
Front Sway bar drop links (left and right)
Front and Rear shock mounts
Front Ball Joints on A-arms (separate from Walrod replacement)
Rear Toe Arms
Because there are so many additional suspension parts needing replacement (and the price differential isn't that much between OEM replacement parts and aftermarket performance parts), I am wondering what to do here? Go with OEM replacements? Go with Tarett or Rennline components? Camber plates rather than OEM rubber top mounts?
Again I'm looking for mostly street use and not wanting (nor able to afford) to invest in a whole RS suspension conversion at this time. I feel silly paying the same price or higher for OEM rubber parts when the performance parts are readily available and sometimes cheaper.
Any thoughts?
Front Sway bar drop links (left and right)
Front and Rear shock mounts
Front Ball Joints on A-arms (separate from Walrod replacement)
Rear Toe Arms
Because there are so many additional suspension parts needing replacement (and the price differential isn't that much between OEM replacement parts and aftermarket performance parts), I am wondering what to do here? Go with OEM replacements? Go with Tarett or Rennline components? Camber plates rather than OEM rubber top mounts?
Again I'm looking for mostly street use and not wanting (nor able to afford) to invest in a whole RS suspension conversion at this time. I feel silly paying the same price or higher for OEM rubber parts when the performance parts are readily available and sometimes cheaper.
Any thoughts?
Track is a different story altogether, but otherwise, something that just works, does not require specific maintenance, aligns well and doesn't squeak is the winner.
Best,
Matt
07-09-2014, 03:07 AM
#42
Drifting
Thread Starter
You already answered you own question, mono-***** are not really what you want for street use, Tarett , Rennline et al sell racing parts w/ mono-*****
But you are already sold on the Walrod fronts(a pseodo race part) so have at it.
These cars oe suspensions are old and worn, all of the parts likely need replacement, do it all at once and do a systems approach, don't just throw a piece here and a non matching piece there.
RS+1, mono-ball shock tops w/ seals(Elephant or Rennline or RS oe), Elephant sports on the front A-arms( all legs), RS rear track arm, RS KT arm, new stock toe and camber arms), probably new shocks too.
But you are already sold on the Walrod fronts(a pseodo race part) so have at it.
These cars oe suspensions are old and worn, all of the parts likely need replacement, do it all at once and do a systems approach, don't just throw a piece here and a non matching piece there.
RS+1, mono-ball shock tops w/ seals(Elephant or Rennline or RS oe), Elephant sports on the front A-arms( all legs), RS rear track arm, RS KT arm, new stock toe and camber arms), probably new shocks too.
Between these unexpected costs and all the labor that is racking up at the mechanic's shop, I'm going to be so in the red on my finances. Hopefully I'll still be able to afford gas and oil, let alone food and rent money.
I hope you're right about that one.
07-09-2014, 10:13 AM
#43
Alright, I've been pushed over the edge. I've ordered camber plates and rear mono-ball shock tops, front Sport bushings and new balljoints, 4 rear Sport bushings to retrofit kinematic and rear track arms, and adjustable drop links from Elephant. I also ordered adjustable toe-link arms from Tarett with locks and boots. As stated prior, I'll be running H&R Street Performance shocks and springs with M030 swaybars at RS+10 ride height. (I don't want to go lower than that...for now.)
Between these unexpected costs and all the labor that is racking up at the mechanic's shop, I'm going to be so in the red on my finances. Hopefully I'll still be able to afford gas and oil, let alone food and rent money.
I hope you're right about that one.
Between these unexpected costs and all the labor that is racking up at the mechanic's shop, I'm going to be so in the red on my finances. Hopefully I'll still be able to afford gas and oil, let alone food and rent money.
I hope you're right about that one.
example the rear track arms, new sport bushes ala RS great but, those arms have a sealed mono-ball oe on the leading arm, these are often quite loose, at least all the ones I've seen have been that way. Additionally each of the rear arms has a ball joint at the outer end are those in good shape?
The H&Rs are good shocks, rebranded Bilsteins.
The Tarret toe links w/ locks and boots is more of a track item but it works ok on the street too. It will tighten the rear a lot compared to the oe's.
Lastly be sure that the arms w/ the new rubber bushes are indexed prior to final tightening, as delineated in the shop manuals
07-09-2014, 11:52 AM
#44
Drifting
Thread Starter
I'm not quite sure what you mean here? Do you mean don't confuse the control arms and install them in the wrong spots? Or something more?
07-09-2014, 12:30 PM
#45
Drifting
I just went thru an unplanned rear end re-fresh too, after a mechanic told me I needed new rear toe arms and A-arms - bushings and joints were done.
In the end, I decided to replace the rear upper arms too (camber and KT arm) with OEM. Like Bill stated I wasn't sure if the ball joints would be ok on the arms after 75K miles/20 years of use, obviously you find out once removed and also the labour hours involved to switch all bushings vs. buying new arms I figured the diff made sense to get new arms.
The upper arms ball joints seemed ok, but I would def check the lower A arms. My ball joints compared to the new A arms, night and day. You could freely move the ball joints with minimal effort. The toe I see your upgrading which I did too - Tarett with lock plates + boots.
Literally just got my car back on the road on Monday, the grip is incredible vs what it use to be. In the end I went with:
OEM upper arms (C+KT), RS A-arm (price is same as non RS) and Tarett toe arm. I wanted to get the KT RS arm but it's not available. And on my car the rear subframe mounts were done too, so upgraded those to elephant racing sport hardness.
Are your front tie rods ok? These seem to go as well, I just replaced with OEM to finish off the refresh suspension job.
In the end, I decided to replace the rear upper arms too (camber and KT arm) with OEM. Like Bill stated I wasn't sure if the ball joints would be ok on the arms after 75K miles/20 years of use, obviously you find out once removed and also the labour hours involved to switch all bushings vs. buying new arms I figured the diff made sense to get new arms.
The upper arms ball joints seemed ok, but I would def check the lower A arms. My ball joints compared to the new A arms, night and day. You could freely move the ball joints with minimal effort. The toe I see your upgrading which I did too - Tarett with lock plates + boots.
Literally just got my car back on the road on Monday, the grip is incredible vs what it use to be. In the end I went with:
OEM upper arms (C+KT), RS A-arm (price is same as non RS) and Tarett toe arm. I wanted to get the KT RS arm but it's not available. And on my car the rear subframe mounts were done too, so upgraded those to elephant racing sport hardness.
Are your front tie rods ok? These seem to go as well, I just replaced with OEM to finish off the refresh suspension job.