jason89i

I purchased a dual purpose 993 back in December. It was supposedly set up by a Porsche performance shop. After a short 2000 miles of initial impressions, I found myself longing for the handling of my old m3. I was less than impressed with my car. Fun, yes. Inspiring, no. I began to loath the bumpsteer and snappy rearend. Being new to Porsche's, I decided to take everyone's advice and get a professional setup and alignment from a well respected shop. It is a long story, but they only set toe / camber. And that was it. No corner weight, no kt, no ride height. I was a bit perturbed. So, I decided to do it myself.

My initial discoveries confirmed my impressions. It did not seem to be set up properly. (see initial settings.) Ride height was WAY too low, corner weights way off and Kinetic was uneven.

My plan is to track it this summer before "upgrading" any suspension pieces. (like uprights, carrier mounts, bushings etc.)

First off, my car:
95 993
Moton clubsport 600/800#
trg sways
monoball bearing caps
rs 3-6 gears
lsd
rs brakes
roll bar.

I quickly drafted up some wheel stands and had them waterjet out of 1/2" aluminum. Wheel stands rest on a 1/2" aluminum block on (2) sheets of plastic on the scales. Because my stands do not have wheels on the bottom, the plastic sheets allowed the plate to freely slide over the scales when changing camber/toe. A quick way to level scales on uneven garage floors is old magazines. Find the thickness you need, then tear out the pages (without the binding.) I know, a little redneck, but it works.



Initial front ride height: 104mm
Initial rear ride height: 92mm
Initial front camber: 3.1deg
Initial rear camber: 1.3deg / 1.8deg
Initial rear kinetic: 7+ / 5
Initial front weight: 450ish# / 700ish#
Initial trg front sway: soft
Initial trg rear sway: medium

I first set the ride height close to RS. Then began to corner weight. Adjust camber toe, adjust KT, readjust rear camber / toe, then fine tune weights.



I now have it very close to where it should be. I did not use a "smart string" to center the toe with the chassis. so, I am taking it to a local shop to verify toe and camber tomorrow morning.

Any last minute toe / camber recommendations would be much appreciated. Here is where I ended up:

Set front ride height: 126mm / 125.5mm
Set rear ride height: 115mm / 116mm
Front camber: 2.6deg *** updated 5/28 to 2.8deg
Rear camber: 1.8deg *** updated 5/28 to 2.1deg
Rear KT : 2.5 (Left maxed out) / 2.5 *** updated 5/28 to 3.25 on motorsport gauge
Front weight 580# / 580# (driver / .75fuel / no tires.)
Rear weight 906# / 871# (driver / .75fuel / no tires.)
Front toe: smidge in.... but very close to 0. *** updated 5/28 to 0.10deg in each side
Rear toe: 0.28deg in. (0.56deg total in) ***updated 5/28 to 0.18deg in each side
Trg front sway: soft
Trg rear sway: soft


WITH driver / .75 fuel / no tires



I have NEVER been able to get a BMW this close. Corner weighting was a breeze. Do the p-cars really have that rigid of a chassis?

Any input greatly appreciated.
Cheers, Jason

race911

Right, no wheels/tires........had me wondering for a second.

You want cross weights at 50%, but you're not far off. Stabilizers disconnected, I hope? If not, you've introduced preload.

From what seems to be a lifetime ago: https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ferrerid=21505

jason89i

Correct. Sways disconnected. I would assume 50~60# each corner for wheels / tires.

I've tried (with bmw's) both ways of weighing. Cross at 50% ...OR fronts equal.

In the bmw's, the front equal weight allowed me to step much deeper into the brake zone. .....before abs begins to take control. (of course those were only 3 channel abs.)

Do the p-cars like the equal cross weight over an equal brake patch? Should I readjust?

My car does have a newer lsd and the factory abd (I think that is 4-channel, right?) Would that change anything in regards to setup?

Bill Verburg

How are you measuring kt? Factory tools still work where you are but go lower and you need the Motorsports gauge, factory spec kt for Cups at much lower height than what you have is 3.5°

The car is w/i RS spec for ride height(lower would be better), the RS front wheel carriers and tierods would help a lot also solid rear side mounts, especially if this is a mostly track car

I'd leave the weights as is but depending on tires more front/rear camber

Nice light car!

Yes they are rigid especially w/ a weld in bar/cage

Bill Verburg

I also need to add that unless you have installed stiffer bushes in allmost all of the horizontal arms it will still be mushy no matter what else you do

race911

I cross weight. But understand I'm not within the last .5 sec/min of lap time as a driver now. If ever.

The factory LSD isn't all that much, so no expectations there. I've never been much of a trailing brake user, coming up from torsion bar let alone square size tire 911s.

Can't compare too much to E36, though I've driven enough at all levels of prep. Same HP/wt of my track car right now is about 6 sec/lap quicker at Thunderhill with a fully developed E36 M3 GTS 3 class car on DOT R's. Which is within 3 sec of a Pobst driven 993 RSR the last time the WA gang showed for the 25 Hours.

jason89i

It was ridiculously low before. It didn't bother me, except for the massive bumpsteer. After raising it, it has become so much more enjoyable to drive...... on the street. I will lower it again, but need rs uprights and shorter carriers to raise the rear subframe.

Motorsport gauge from Autometrics. Set at 2.5 In my vast searching on here, I found recommendations from 2-3. Seeing I maxed out at 2.5, I just ran with it.

Nothing too sticky. Just NT-01's. Maybe ra-1's or 888's when those fall off.... its a familiar shoe.

Understood. Most definitely. I want to drive it and see how deep I want to go. harder rubber at the minimum. maybe monoballs. need some seat time to figure it all out.

I too am not within .5sec/min. Never raced, but plenty of seat time and instruct with bmwcca. started with momentum cars and slowly built up from mild to silly (6#/hp). The e30m's were such a great platform. I am expecting even more out of the 993. Time will tell, this is just the beginning of the p-car journey.

Thanks for the input. Jason

Magdaddy

ohhhh, hubstand alignments. Joel Reiser did my original one after the previous owners too agressive set up destroyed the tires in 4K miles. The car has never been better...

Move forward 4 years, and 40K miles...and I gotta now drive 4 1/2 hours just to get a shop who does string alignments, and doesn't rely on the "laser" machine's.

Still hoping to find someone who does them with the hubstands.

While I don't completely understand how everything is done, I certainly can appreciate the results.

Impressive set up you crafted there, you got it figured.

hubstand alignments =993 Nirvana ...IMHO

jason89i

Sure does make it easier! Not sure how it could be done on the floor without them. Cheers, Jason

Bill Verburg

here's mine running on NT01 235/40 on 8.5, 275/35 on 10 x18, the prefered tires would be 245/35 and 285/30 but only Hoosier and Kumho have those sizes in R rubber and I refuse to smoke that crack pipe

shocks custom valved Bilstein Cups 600/750# springs, no helpers

weight 2740# w/ 80% gas, g50/30 w/ motorsports lsd and 4 channel ABS, RS brakes Pagid 29 f/r, weld in roll bar

monoballs every where
front: shock tops- Mode, track arm- Elephant sealed monoballs, RS sway-neutral
rear, shock tops- Rennline, track arm- factory RSR, upper arms Rennline, toe arms-Tarett, RS sway neutral

The stock rear eccentrics tend to wander w/ track use and limit rear camber even w/ RS eccentrics hence the Rennline rear upper arms

height: 94/98mm RS wheel carriers/RSR tierods, solid rear sides
camber -3.1°/-2.6°
toe 0°/.25°
caster 5°/3.5°

Cup//RS/CS aero rear set to 6°
I'm extremely happy w/ this setup

k722070

jason, any reason for not using more camber?

race911

Ah, E30. We just had the quarterly worship at the Church Of The S14 on our local list earlier this week. (In comparision to the BRZ/FRS engine.) Ultimately, if you're outside the 1-1.5 sec/min of lap time from what capable in the car of none of the fussing around matters. You're just on mental cruise control burning gas and tires. But you already know that.

jason89i

I expect 8k street miles / 5 track days this summer. It came down to tire preservation / street comfort. Coming from a more track oriented car, I was hoping for a good dual purpose. (I know, I know ... there is no such thing.) But I am dead set on it.

Seems general consensus was more camber. Put it on the rack for verification and made some small adjustments. Here is where I ended up.

Front camber: 2.8deg
Rear camber: 2.1deg
Rear KT : 3.25 on motorsport gauge
Front toe: 0.10deg in each side
Rear toe: 0.18deg in each side

WOW! I cannot believe what a difference all this has made. Two major leaps in handling. I just took the car for a spirited country drive. NOW, the car feels great.

A HUGE thank you to rennlist members. This place is awesome.

race911

And then wait until your tires are at temperature. Once you get some valid pyrometer data you can fully understand your compromises, and accept them or...............

Which tracks are you running?

jason89i

Understood, but that .5sec/min is 10x more difficult to squeeze than the first 1sec/min.

Ive owned a few s14 cars, but I am not a "worshiper." Ive owned and tracked maybe 5-6 e30m's in different configurations. (12 e30's.) The last e30m I owned... well it owned me. Too much hp. I found myself getting sloppy and using hp to compensate for a poor line. That is when I decided to go back to basics. Time to work on precision and momentum.... enter the 993.


EDIT
Blackhawk 1.9mi technical, Gingerman, Autobahn and Road America. Most time at Blackhawk.

I know there are compromises. I hate compromises, but these are the cards I have dealt myself. I am sure I will overcook the outside edges. It is just a matter of how much is tolerable. I think the car is at a good starting point. Blackhawk in two weeks. You are right. Time to strap in, data will tell.