Anyone used these tweeters in stock pods?
11-08-2013, 01:33 PM
#1
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Anyone used these tweeters in stock pods?
Same diameter as stock (1.5"), same impedance (4 ohms). Seems like they'd be a nice upgrade.
http://pacificstereo.com/focal-kit-t...FUYaOgodNBYAFw
http://pacificstereo.com/focal-kit-t...FUYaOgodNBYAFw
11-08-2013, 11:41 PM
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Hey NP993 -
With the right head end equipment (one w/equalization) its possible these tweet's could be viable..... Thanks!
Specific to the 993s HiFi speaker/amp option #490,,, the OEM door pod/tweeter's signal is derived from a piggybacked wiring arrangement off of the 3" full range speakers signal; often (erroneously) referred to as a mid-range speaker. That being said, the OEM tweeter pods accidental signal does not have much in the way of bandwidth or amplitude.
So without a proper a signal ,,, a new high performance tweeter would have little effect. My .02
The OEM under seat located amplifier can be swapped with a modern amplifier incorporating professional level DSP filtering by way of 1/3 octave/parametric equalization, crossovers, etc., to name a few. In this scenario the tweeter pods would be fully controlled or even active. The stock OEM radio's,,, as example the CDR210, CDR220, et cetra work well with these modern amp/DSP EQ units, there often with Bluetooth/Aux and *S/PDIF, I/O capabilities. And with limited to NO intrusion to the originality of vehicle, vintage or otherwise.
The combo is transformative with many OEM audio systems/radio's having a new life.
* Sony Phillips Digital Interface Format
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=S/PDIF
With the right head end equipment (one w/equalization) its possible these tweet's could be viable..... Thanks!
Specific to the 993s HiFi speaker/amp option #490,,, the OEM door pod/tweeter's signal is derived from a piggybacked wiring arrangement off of the 3" full range speakers signal; often (erroneously) referred to as a mid-range speaker. That being said, the OEM tweeter pods accidental signal does not have much in the way of bandwidth or amplitude.
So without a proper a signal ,,, a new high performance tweeter would have little effect. My .02
The OEM under seat located amplifier can be swapped with a modern amplifier incorporating professional level DSP filtering by way of 1/3 octave/parametric equalization, crossovers, etc., to name a few. In this scenario the tweeter pods would be fully controlled or even active. The stock OEM radio's,,, as example the CDR210, CDR220, et cetra work well with these modern amp/DSP EQ units, there often with Bluetooth/Aux and *S/PDIF, I/O capabilities. And with limited to NO intrusion to the originality of vehicle, vintage or otherwise.
The combo is transformative with many OEM audio systems/radio's having a new life.
* Sony Phillips Digital Interface Format
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=S/PDIF
11-09-2013, 01:48 PM
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12-07-2013, 10:44 AM
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The #490 HiFi option cars have 2, per door, discrete speaker wiring channels; in addition to the rear shelf channels. IIRC the PAG wiring schematic shows these as LF (sub), HF right and LF (sub), HF left. In addition to right rear/left rear speaker channels. These discrete wiring channels start at the passenger seat located OEM amp terminating at the door (HiFi option's) speaker enclosure.
Sure,,,, smart money utilizes this production wiring - and why the not? The OE speaker wirings construction is 18ga copper strand, IIRC.
"All the speakers" .... is there ever one to many?
As one DSP/Amplifier example, (there are other excellent mouse traps on the market) is the Mosconi One 60.4 DSP,,, here is a link. http://mosconi-america.com/one604dsp.html .... this fits under the passenger seat easily being driven by the Porsche/Becker CDR XXX radio range. In one fell swoop the OEM HiFi system will now have much needed EQ, aux inputs and added output power. Car HiFi shop 101.
Sure,,,, smart money utilizes this production wiring - and why the not? The OE speaker wirings construction is 18ga copper strand, IIRC.
"All the speakers" .... is there ever one to many?
As one DSP/Amplifier example, (there are other excellent mouse traps on the market) is the Mosconi One 60.4 DSP,,, here is a link. http://mosconi-america.com/one604dsp.html .... this fits under the passenger seat easily being driven by the Porsche/Becker CDR XXX radio range. In one fell swoop the OEM HiFi system will now have much needed EQ, aux inputs and added output power. Car HiFi shop 101.
12-07-2013, 06:32 PM
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I'm surprised at this advice, Mike. I'd change speakers way before changing any other components. Especially the horrible Nokia paper speakers in a 993.
The amp would be next.
The amp would be next.
12-07-2013, 08:34 PM
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Mike S. - In a former time, yes change the speaker type... I'll give you that.
However in this day and age,, DSP filtering is the approach to control the speaker or driver into submission. This offers a far more deliberate and predicable outcome than merely changing a speaker out right, er motor assembly. Equalization filtering is key here. DSP runs the gamut of signal filtering. Christ,,,, I've read where DSP has been seen walking on water.........!
For some time now, say more than 2 decades the approach to world class audio monitoring is to "fix" the motor assemblies anomalies through active signal input and this goes well beyond frequency control. It's high performance delivered through effective DSP. Digital Signal Processing on the 12/24 volt automotive aftermarket scene has arrived at world class performance & functionality,,, and for little money $.
The cheap 20-23mm OEM Porsche/Nokia tweeters sing, yes sing in my 993 because the DSP unit beats them into submission byway of an input signal which corrects the tweeters operational short comings. Okay,,, there's no electronic cure for narrowing dispersion which >1 inch (>25mm) tweeters often all exhibit; but that's a circumstance altogether different.
See,, Genelec, ATC England, PMC Audio, Dynaudio/TC Electronic, Urei
However in this day and age,, DSP filtering is the approach to control the speaker or driver into submission. This offers a far more deliberate and predicable outcome than merely changing a speaker out right, er motor assembly. Equalization filtering is key here. DSP runs the gamut of signal filtering. Christ,,,, I've read where DSP has been seen walking on water.........!
For some time now, say more than 2 decades the approach to world class audio monitoring is to "fix" the motor assemblies anomalies through active signal input and this goes well beyond frequency control. It's high performance delivered through effective DSP. Digital Signal Processing on the 12/24 volt automotive aftermarket scene has arrived at world class performance & functionality,,, and for little money $.
The cheap 20-23mm OEM Porsche/Nokia tweeters sing, yes sing in my 993 because the DSP unit beats them into submission byway of an input signal which corrects the tweeters operational short comings. Okay,,, there's no electronic cure for narrowing dispersion which >1 inch (>25mm) tweeters often all exhibit; but that's a circumstance altogether different.
See,, Genelec, ATC England, PMC Audio, Dynaudio/TC Electronic, Urei
12-07-2013, 09:06 PM
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NP993s initial post and thread was regarding the 993 pod/tweeters... though.
The 3 inch (80mm) full range speaker (often mistaken for a mid-range) is a different animal - its an ill suited historic paper speaker paired with a early 1990s speaker system design.
Remember,, Nokia** was entering the OEM automotive segment byway of acquisition; ITT/Nokia actually manufactured these 993s speaker components. A solid performance upgrade is the Dynaudio/VW 3" (80mm) mid-range with a operational range btw 800hz thru 5khz real life useable. This is an excellent, world class soft dome type driver. The dome's polar pattern is narrow'r than you would think ... but this works in our favor in the 993.
Dynaudio packages this driver for both aftermarket sales and OEM. The OEM VW version has proven ideal because its packaging is suitable for use in the 993s HiFi options door mounted enclosure.
** Nokia has finalized the sale of all operations to Microsoft this week. 12/03/2013
The 3 inch (80mm) full range speaker (often mistaken for a mid-range) is a different animal - its an ill suited historic paper speaker paired with a early 1990s speaker system design.
Remember,, Nokia** was entering the OEM automotive segment byway of acquisition; ITT/Nokia actually manufactured these 993s speaker components. A solid performance upgrade is the Dynaudio/VW 3" (80mm) mid-range with a operational range btw 800hz thru 5khz real life useable. This is an excellent, world class soft dome type driver. The dome's polar pattern is narrow'r than you would think ... but this works in our favor in the 993.
Dynaudio packages this driver for both aftermarket sales and OEM. The OEM VW version has proven ideal because its packaging is suitable for use in the 993s HiFi options door mounted enclosure.
** Nokia has finalized the sale of all operations to Microsoft this week. 12/03/2013
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12-08-2013, 12:38 AM
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Mike, as a former electrical engineer and the long-term believer in the laws of physics I would, again, disagree. The Omar Bose approach of cheap drivers with wave equalization (yes, I do understand what he's trying to do, I just disagree with it), honestly, never worked for me. Pretty much any KEF speaker has sounded 100 times better than any Bose speaker that I've listen to.
I understand pretty clearly the acoustic issues in a car. I understand the ability, to some point, to equalize some of it through DSP. But I don;t buy, for a second, that the Nokias in HiFi system are capable of anything other than crap even when they are not deteriorated to bits. Which, by this point, most of the ones in half a dozen sets I've held in my hands are.
As you've said above, the speakers need to go anyway. Dynaudio makes great drivers. Focals are pretty good (that's what I've replaced my speakers with, though I consider my own system to be very basic). Which brings us back to NP993's question. I've put my own Focal driver into the enlarged tweeter door holes. I also have a set of 165KF tweets and crossovers. These are smaller 25mm size and would probably fit into the factory HiFi pods. Provided that the old tweets are cut out of the pods, which is not as trivial as it might sound.
I understand pretty clearly the acoustic issues in a car. I understand the ability, to some point, to equalize some of it through DSP. But I don;t buy, for a second, that the Nokias in HiFi system are capable of anything other than crap even when they are not deteriorated to bits. Which, by this point, most of the ones in half a dozen sets I've held in my hands are.
As you've said above, the speakers need to go anyway. Dynaudio makes great drivers. Focals are pretty good (that's what I've replaced my speakers with, though I consider my own system to be very basic). Which brings us back to NP993's question. I've put my own Focal driver into the enlarged tweeter door holes. I also have a set of 165KF tweets and crossovers. These are smaller 25mm size and would probably fit into the factory HiFi pods. Provided that the old tweets are cut out of the pods, which is not as trivial as it might sound.
12-08-2013, 12:43 AM
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Oh, one more thing. 1.5" tweet will not fit into the OEM tweeter housing. Nor will ti fit in the OEM space without some minor modifications to the door card and possibly the door frame, depending how you'd want to mount it.
12-08-2013, 08:51 AM
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The OP (NP993) obviously made a simple error when initially composing this "tweeter" posting.......
The 993 OEM tweeter pods tweeters are a uber common automotive variety; Sized 23mm or less. The Parts Express mail order is a time honored source for audio components. http://www.parts-express.com
The 993 OEM tweeter pods tweeters are a uber common automotive variety; Sized 23mm or less. The Parts Express mail order is a time honored source for audio components. http://www.parts-express.com
12-08-2013, 09:18 AM
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My understanding with high frequency speakers is that they work or they are burn't out. One maybe slightly more efficient then the next but replacing them would probably not result in an "upgrade" to the system's sound unless the type of driver is a different kind such as replacing a soft dome driver with a hard dome or a piezo driver.
12-08-2013, 09:34 AM
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Mike S / nile13 - No one is grossly challenging your opinion or your former EE chop's.
There are focused audio website's for "bench racing" ones declared opinions or brand prejudice's.
And yes,, I've read where the Laws of Physics are sarcastically discoursed. Too funny.
I've known Omar Bose, and the "on the mountain" management team personally, and more than one brain child MIT engineer who's found a career at the corporation. The private firms long standing market success is 99.44% marketing and not "technical paradigm" breakthroughs. Not bye a long shot. So we're in agreement.
P.S. The highly successful late 1980's to date Acoustimass AM5 (out of sight bass box w/2 tiny satellite speakers) employed NO DSP what-so-ever, it was merely a triple band pass box (1930's patent) with satellites... It spawned a whole genre or market segment for decades to come. DSP was no-where in sight. Oh, while I don't claim to be up on current, or all past Bose products,,, I'm sure the use of todays DSP (some form of DSP use) has krept into the companies product mix. - I'll give you that.
e.g., the firms aviation market (pilot and right seat) noise cancelation headsets represent herculean DSP in action. Clark aviation headset company didn't know what hit their market position.....DSP just made a bar napkin idea,, a Noise/Cancelation headset hugely marketable.
Digital signal processing (DSP) relative to audio is the single largest contributor of the industry's developments in recent decades.
Line up (in any given order) a hand full of 1 inch (25mm) sized automotive tweeters, the Focal brand included .... and DSP will beat those suckers into submission.
PS. The old (killer) KEF speakers known as uniQ was KEF's attempt at a single point source coaxial driver, the mouse trap here is the two speakers of the coax are phase coherent at its crossover point; e.g. Tannoy Dual Concentric marketing tag. The KEF UniQ or the similarly positioned Tannoy Dual's is a mechanical solution to manipulate a crossover coherence relationship, emphasis mechanical. Todays DSP in a circuit can manipulate crossover coherence with ease; as example.
There are focused audio website's for "bench racing" ones declared opinions or brand prejudice's.
And yes,, I've read where the Laws of Physics are sarcastically discoursed. Too funny.
I've known Omar Bose, and the "on the mountain" management team personally, and more than one brain child MIT engineer who's found a career at the corporation. The private firms long standing market success is 99.44% marketing and not "technical paradigm" breakthroughs. Not bye a long shot. So we're in agreement.
P.S. The highly successful late 1980's to date Acoustimass AM5 (out of sight bass box w/2 tiny satellite speakers) employed NO DSP what-so-ever, it was merely a triple band pass box (1930's patent) with satellites... It spawned a whole genre or market segment for decades to come. DSP was no-where in sight. Oh, while I don't claim to be up on current, or all past Bose products,,, I'm sure the use of todays DSP (some form of DSP use) has krept into the companies product mix. - I'll give you that.
e.g., the firms aviation market (pilot and right seat) noise cancelation headsets represent herculean DSP in action. Clark aviation headset company didn't know what hit their market position.....DSP just made a bar napkin idea,, a Noise/Cancelation headset hugely marketable.
Digital signal processing (DSP) relative to audio is the single largest contributor of the industry's developments in recent decades.
Line up (in any given order) a hand full of 1 inch (25mm) sized automotive tweeters, the Focal brand included .... and DSP will beat those suckers into submission.
PS. The old (killer) KEF speakers known as uniQ was KEF's attempt at a single point source coaxial driver, the mouse trap here is the two speakers of the coax are phase coherent at its crossover point; e.g. Tannoy Dual Concentric marketing tag. The KEF UniQ or the similarly positioned Tannoy Dual's is a mechanical solution to manipulate a crossover coherence relationship, emphasis mechanical. Todays DSP in a circuit can manipulate crossover coherence with ease; as example.
Mike, as a former electrical engineer and the long-term believer in the laws of physics I would, again, disagree. The Omar Bose approach of cheap drivers with wave equalization (yes, I do understand what he's trying to do, I just disagree with it), honestly, never worked for me. Pretty much any KEF speaker has sounded 100 times better than any Bose speaker that I've listen to.
I understand pretty clearly the acoustic issues in a car. I understand the ability, to some point, to equalize some of it through DSP. But I don;t buy, for a second, that the Nokias in HiFi system are capable of anything other than crap even when they are not deteriorated to bits. Which, by this point, most of the ones in half a dozen sets I've held in my hands are.
As you've said above, the speakers need to go anyway. Dynaudio makes great drivers. Focals are pretty good (that's what I've replaced my speakers with, though I consider my own system to be very basic). Which brings us back to NP993's question. I've put my own Focal driver into the enlarged tweeter door holes. I also have a set of 165KF tweets and crossovers. These are smaller 25mm size and would probably fit into the factory HiFi pods. Provided that the old tweets are cut out of the pods, which is not as trivial as it might sound.
I understand pretty clearly the acoustic issues in a car. I understand the ability, to some point, to equalize some of it through DSP. But I don;t buy, for a second, that the Nokias in HiFi system are capable of anything other than crap even when they are not deteriorated to bits. Which, by this point, most of the ones in half a dozen sets I've held in my hands are.
As you've said above, the speakers need to go anyway. Dynaudio makes great drivers. Focals are pretty good (that's what I've replaced my speakers with, though I consider my own system to be very basic). Which brings us back to NP993's question. I've put my own Focal driver into the enlarged tweeter door holes. I also have a set of 165KF tweets and crossovers. These are smaller 25mm size and would probably fit into the factory HiFi pods. Provided that the old tweets are cut out of the pods, which is not as trivial as it might sound.
12-08-2013, 12:09 PM
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Those Focals I bought didn't work. Tried plugging them in and you could barely get any sound out of them. 4 ohms like stock, but they have a capacitor that (as I understand these things, which isn't saying much) requires a great deal more power than the stock tweets.
I wanted to keep the stock head unit and amp and just replace the speakers. I have the JL Audio woofers, and the 3" Dynaudio European VW mid-ranges. Those are superb improvements over stock (thanks Mike Schneider).
Now all that's left is finding a tweeter that either looks stock mounted on the door or that can fit with some dremeling into the stock tweeter pods. Any ideas?
I wanted to keep the stock head unit and amp and just replace the speakers. I have the JL Audio woofers, and the 3" Dynaudio European VW mid-ranges. Those are superb improvements over stock (thanks Mike Schneider).
Now all that's left is finding a tweeter that either looks stock mounted on the door or that can fit with some dremeling into the stock tweeter pods. Any ideas?
12-13-2013, 08:33 AM
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NP993 -
The actual tuning of my 993 HiFi option's altered enclosure is just about complete. The Dyn and the 130mm woofer really work well together all be it with a plentiful dose of filtering. Couldn't be happier. Linear, broad stereo image, LOUD.
Lemme noodle the tweeter thang.. I'll find a solution for a 3/4 tweet.
The actual tuning of my 993 HiFi option's altered enclosure is just about complete. The Dyn and the 130mm woofer really work well together all be it with a plentiful dose of filtering. Couldn't be happier. Linear, broad stereo image, LOUD.
Lemme noodle the tweeter thang.. I'll find a solution for a 3/4 tweet.
Those Focals I bought didn't work. Tried plugging them in and you could barely get any sound out of them. 4 ohms like stock, but they have a capacitor that (as I understand these things, which isn't saying much) requires a great deal more power than the stock tweets.
I wanted to keep the stock head unit and amp and just replace the speakers. I have the JL Audio woofers, and the 3" Dynaudio European VW mid-ranges. Those are superb improvements over stock (thanks Mike Schneider).
Now all that's left is finding a tweeter that either looks stock mounted on the door or that can fit with some dremeling into the stock tweeter pods. Any ideas?
I wanted to keep the stock head unit and amp and just replace the speakers. I have the JL Audio woofers, and the 3" Dynaudio European VW mid-ranges. Those are superb improvements over stock (thanks Mike Schneider).
Now all that's left is finding a tweeter that either looks stock mounted on the door or that can fit with some dremeling into the stock tweeter pods. Any ideas?