Stock vs Elephant Racing Bushings
08-09-2013, 01:42 PM
#1
Advanced
Thread Starter
Stock vs Elephant Racing Bushings
Hi All,
I am sure this has been asked 100 times before, but I appreciate any help, I am about to install Bilstein PSS10's on a 993 C2 which I will take to PCA DE events twice or thrice a year, I've read the polyurethane bushings are harsh and noisy, the stock bushings are too compliant and change geometry on harder cornering, and the elephant racing ones offer sport and stock hardness but they cost $800 or so to change control arms and rear links.
Is it worth it to pay for the elephant over rubber ? Is there a long term benefit in terms of not having to change them again ? and does the ride become much harsher with harder bushings ?
Again, I apreciate the help ...
Tony
I am sure this has been asked 100 times before, but I appreciate any help, I am about to install Bilstein PSS10's on a 993 C2 which I will take to PCA DE events twice or thrice a year, I've read the polyurethane bushings are harsh and noisy, the stock bushings are too compliant and change geometry on harder cornering, and the elephant racing ones offer sport and stock hardness but they cost $800 or so to change control arms and rear links.
Is it worth it to pay for the elephant over rubber ? Is there a long term benefit in terms of not having to change them again ? and does the ride become much harsher with harder bushings ?
Again, I apreciate the help ...
Tony
08-09-2013, 03:46 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
I bought the Walrod bushings, but have not installed them yet. I drove a friends '72 911 Hot rod who used Elephant Bushings on his and I was surprised on how well it rode. Of course he is on taller profile tires.
08-09-2013, 04:25 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Hello Tony, if you want a good and genuine reply from the guys here, you have to give them the number of miles there is on the car.
Plus, you do not specify which elephant arms you are talking about.
As for elephant bushings, these are nothing but factory bushings, in normal and RS stiffness.
A little description of the car, and what has been changed already as far as mileage is concerned with the chassis.
sneakpeek on an answer I would reply if you have high mileage car :
I would not change the rear bushings on my car, I would rather purchase the whole arm new, with a fresh ball-joint (and there are cheap sources compared to Dealer prices)
Plus, you do not specify which elephant arms you are talking about.
As for elephant bushings, these are nothing but factory bushings, in normal and RS stiffness.
A little description of the car, and what has been changed already as far as mileage is concerned with the chassis.
sneakpeek on an answer I would reply if you have high mileage car :
I would not change the rear bushings on my car, I would rather purchase the whole arm new, with a fresh ball-joint (and there are cheap sources compared to Dealer prices)
08-09-2013, 04:26 PM
#5
Hi All,
I am sure this has been asked 100 times before, but I appreciate any help, I am about to install Bilstein PSS10's on a 993 C2 which I will take to PCA DE events twice or thrice a year, I've read the polyurethane bushings are harsh and noisy, the stock bushings are too compliant and change geometry on harder cornering, and the elephant racing ones offer sport and stock hardness but they cost $800 or so to change control arms and rear links.
Is it worth it to pay for the elephant over rubber ? Is there a long term benefit in terms of not having to change them again ? and does the ride become much harsher with harder bushings ?
Again, I apreciate the help ...
Tony
I am sure this has been asked 100 times before, but I appreciate any help, I am about to install Bilstein PSS10's on a 993 C2 which I will take to PCA DE events twice or thrice a year, I've read the polyurethane bushings are harsh and noisy, the stock bushings are too compliant and change geometry on harder cornering, and the elephant racing ones offer sport and stock hardness but they cost $800 or so to change control arms and rear links.
Is it worth it to pay for the elephant over rubber ? Is there a long term benefit in terms of not having to change them again ? and does the ride become much harsher with harder bushings ?
Again, I apreciate the help ...
Tony
993 front A-arm has leading and trailing bushes, the Elephant's are ~$180/axle set for leading and ~$140 for trailing
options are stock/stock or stock/sport(ala RS) or sport/sport
in back it depends on how serious you want to get
the RS had only 2 stiffer/ bushes/side so if you want to emulate RS you need sport bushes for the inner end of the KT arm(upper rear) and trailing A-arm(lower trailing), if you are more serious get a toe arm w/ locks and mono-*****, just be sure that the leading Arm mono-ball is still tight and the camber arm rubber is still ok. Lastly for lowered and even more serious use replace the rubber sub frame mounts w/ solids, I like Rennlines for those
08-09-2013, 05:20 PM
#6
Advanced
Thread Starter
Hi Geolab,
The car has 86k miles on it, i believe the bushings have never been changed, it has a front strut brace and I have the PSS10's ready to install. I was told by one mechanic after he drove it that probably the bushings were shot because it had a little bit of lag on quick steering, he suggested urethane bushings, however I fear the ride will become to harsh and also squeaky / noisy.
Another Mechanic I talked to said to get the elephant sport hardness for front A arm (front and rear) and also rear toe link bushings, in sport hardness. It just seemed a bit excessive to pay $750 for bushings.
The car has 86k miles on it, i believe the bushings have never been changed, it has a front strut brace and I have the PSS10's ready to install. I was told by one mechanic after he drove it that probably the bushings were shot because it had a little bit of lag on quick steering, he suggested urethane bushings, however I fear the ride will become to harsh and also squeaky / noisy.
Another Mechanic I talked to said to get the elephant sport hardness for front A arm (front and rear) and also rear toe link bushings, in sport hardness. It just seemed a bit excessive to pay $750 for bushings.
08-09-2013, 05:29 PM
#7
Advanced
Thread Starter
If you want factory engineered performance go w/ Elephant
993 front A-arm has leading and trailing bushes, the Elephant's are ~$180/axle set for leading and ~$140 for trailing
options are stock/stock or stock/sport(ala RS) or sport/sport
in back it depends on how serious you want to get
the RS had only 2 stiffer/ bushes/side so if you want to emulate RS you need sport bushes for the inner end of the KT arm(upper rear) and trailing A-arm(lower trailing), if you are more serious get a toe arm w/ locks and mono-*****, just be sure that the leading Arm mono-ball is still tight and the camber arm rubber is still ok. Lastly for lowered and even more serious use replace the rubber sub frame mounts w/ solids, I like Rennlines for those
993 front A-arm has leading and trailing bushes, the Elephant's are ~$180/axle set for leading and ~$140 for trailing
options are stock/stock or stock/sport(ala RS) or sport/sport
in back it depends on how serious you want to get
the RS had only 2 stiffer/ bushes/side so if you want to emulate RS you need sport bushes for the inner end of the KT arm(upper rear) and trailing A-arm(lower trailing), if you are more serious get a toe arm w/ locks and mono-*****, just be sure that the leading Arm mono-ball is still tight and the camber arm rubber is still ok. Lastly for lowered and even more serious use replace the rubber sub frame mounts w/ solids, I like Rennlines for those
Appreciate the help .
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08-09-2013, 06:00 PM
#8
Banned
To Geolab and Bill's comments I would add a few thoughts.
I added PSS10'S/walrod front bushings and M030 sways to the C4S when I first got it plus an alignment AND corner balance by someone who knows what they are doing. Hugh difference in the car.
Three years later I just got through doing almost a full RS suspension (only exception PSS 10's and a couple of non RS parts that connect the PSS 10's to the camber plates. The difference between the above set up and the RS set up is astounding...part of this is due to the RS wheel carriers which dial out bump steer but there is still more to it.
One question for you is ride height. Anything below ROW height you are going to get some bump steer...by the time you get to RS height you are going to have a lot of bump steer. This greatly effects your comfort level and handling at speed.
Without changing the stock camber plates you may have a hard time setting up the alignment you are aiming for.
I would add RS motor mounts to the list.
If you are only going to do DE events I would not do mono ***** anywhere (except maybe walrod bushings up front)
As to cost, there is no cheap route.
Not sure who your mechanic is...there are a few that drive 993's enough that can tell you between driving and an inspection what is going on...the key word is few.
I would do in order:
Tires (depending on what you currently have and condition)
PSS 10's
Walrods or RS bushings upfront
new sways (MO30 are nice)
RS motor mounts
Full alignment and corner balance
After this it's a crap shoot...one control arm bushing may still be in very good condition another not and hard to tell unless things are coming out.
I added PSS10'S/walrod front bushings and M030 sways to the C4S when I first got it plus an alignment AND corner balance by someone who knows what they are doing. Hugh difference in the car.
Three years later I just got through doing almost a full RS suspension (only exception PSS 10's and a couple of non RS parts that connect the PSS 10's to the camber plates. The difference between the above set up and the RS set up is astounding...part of this is due to the RS wheel carriers which dial out bump steer but there is still more to it.
One question for you is ride height. Anything below ROW height you are going to get some bump steer...by the time you get to RS height you are going to have a lot of bump steer. This greatly effects your comfort level and handling at speed.
Without changing the stock camber plates you may have a hard time setting up the alignment you are aiming for.
I would add RS motor mounts to the list.
If you are only going to do DE events I would not do mono ***** anywhere (except maybe walrod bushings up front)
As to cost, there is no cheap route.
Not sure who your mechanic is...there are a few that drive 993's enough that can tell you between driving and an inspection what is going on...the key word is few.
I would do in order:
Tires (depending on what you currently have and condition)
PSS 10's
Walrods or RS bushings upfront
new sways (MO30 are nice)
RS motor mounts
Full alignment and corner balance
After this it's a crap shoot...one control arm bushing may still be in very good condition another not and hard to tell unless things are coming out.
08-09-2013, 06:59 PM
#9
Advanced
Thread Starter
To Geolab and Bill's comments I would add a few thoughts.
One question for you is ride height. Anything below ROW height you are going to get some bump steer...by the time you get to RS height you are going to have a lot of bump steer. This greatly effects your comfort level and handling at speed.
Without changing the stock camber plates you may have a hard time setting up the alignment you are aiming for.
I would add RS motor mounts to the list.
If you are only going to do DE events I would not do mono ***** anywhere (except maybe walrod bushings up front)
As to cost, there is no cheap route.
Not sure who your mechanic is...there are a few that drive 993's enough that can tell you between driving and an inspection what is going on...the key word is few.
I would do in order:
Tires (depending on what you currently have and condition)
PSS 10's
Walrods or RS bushings upfront
new sways (MO30 are nice)
RS motor mounts
Full alignment and corner balance
After this it's a crap shoot...one control arm bushing may still be in very good condition another not and hard to tell unless things are coming out.
One question for you is ride height. Anything below ROW height you are going to get some bump steer...by the time you get to RS height you are going to have a lot of bump steer. This greatly effects your comfort level and handling at speed.
Without changing the stock camber plates you may have a hard time setting up the alignment you are aiming for.
I would add RS motor mounts to the list.
If you are only going to do DE events I would not do mono ***** anywhere (except maybe walrod bushings up front)
As to cost, there is no cheap route.
Not sure who your mechanic is...there are a few that drive 993's enough that can tell you between driving and an inspection what is going on...the key word is few.
I would do in order:
Tires (depending on what you currently have and condition)
PSS 10's
Walrods or RS bushings upfront
new sways (MO30 are nice)
RS motor mounts
Full alignment and corner balance
After this it's a crap shoot...one control arm bushing may still be in very good condition another not and hard to tell unless things are coming out.
It will be ROW height, the mechanic told me he could get a few degrees neg camber without new plates. Where do you get Walrods ?
08-09-2013, 08:15 PM
#10
Racer
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Hi Tony_KB
I installed Elephant sports bushes with PSS10's on my C2 and couldn't be happier.
It is a perfect match, plus I put my car in Concourse's and the Elephant bushes look standard.
Poly bushes over a long time will squeak, as poly bushes due to operation will remove the grease of the metal shafts.
I installed Elephant sports bushes with PSS10's on my C2 and couldn't be happier.
It is a perfect match, plus I put my car in Concourse's and the Elephant bushes look standard.
Poly bushes over a long time will squeak, as poly bushes due to operation will remove the grease of the metal shafts.
08-09-2013, 08:34 PM
#11
Banned
http://fdmotorsports.net/suspension-993
Some do but have yet to see anyone say they have an issue with walrod bushings
08-09-2013, 09:31 PM
#12
Advanced
Thread Starter
FD Motorsports.
http://fdmotorsports.net/suspension-993
Some do but have yet to see anyone say they have an issue with walrod bushings
08-09-2013, 09:42 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Just to be clear, the Walrods are PU. Having said that, they aren't noisy or harsh, in my opinion. I put them on a couple of years ago, and love 'em. They are also supplied with a unique grease, that is from another world, IMO, so they aren't lubed with typical lithium or other off the shelf product.
08-09-2013, 11:03 PM
#14
If you want factory engineered performance go w/ Elephant
993 front A-arm has leading and trailing bushes, the Elephant's are ~$180/axle set for leading and ~$140 for trailing
options are stock/stock or stock/sport(ala RS) or sport/sport
in back it depends on how serious you want to get
the RS had only 2 stiffer/ bushes/side so if you want to emulate RS you need sport bushes for the inner end of the KT arm(upper rear) and trailing A-arm(lower trailing), if you are more serious get a toe arm w/ locks and mono-*****, just be sure that the leading Arm mono-ball is still tight and the camber arm rubber is still ok. Lastly for lowered and even more serious use replace the rubber sub frame mounts w/ solids, I like Rennlines for those
993 front A-arm has leading and trailing bushes, the Elephant's are ~$180/axle set for leading and ~$140 for trailing
options are stock/stock or stock/sport(ala RS) or sport/sport
in back it depends on how serious you want to get
the RS had only 2 stiffer/ bushes/side so if you want to emulate RS you need sport bushes for the inner end of the KT arm(upper rear) and trailing A-arm(lower trailing), if you are more serious get a toe arm w/ locks and mono-*****, just be sure that the leading Arm mono-ball is still tight and the camber arm rubber is still ok. Lastly for lowered and even more serious use replace the rubber sub frame mounts w/ solids, I like Rennlines for those
For the front, it's the larger forward / leading bushing that fails & causes the vibration in the steering wheel (from both pairs of ~100k mi arms I've looked at). The rear bushings are so small that there isn't much benefit to replacing these either. I'd just replace the forward pair w/ the stiffer Elephant ones & apply the savings toward strut mounts.
Surprisingly, not much difference in ride - at least the portion that you'd expect bushing compliance to affect..
08-09-2013, 11:40 PM
#15
Advanced
Thread Starter
Just to be clear, the Walrods are PU. Having said that, they aren't noisy or harsh, in my opinion. I put them on a couple of years ago, and love 'em. They are also supplied with a unique grease, that is from another world, IMO, so they aren't lubed with typical lithium or other off the shelf product.