CR210 Head Unit Images + Info
07-31-2013, 09:19 PM
#16
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[ Continued from first thread message ]
Time to think a moment about the permanent installation of the new head unit before stuffing it all into the dash.
46. and 47. Remember the hassles of removing the OEM head unit sleeve? That stupid sleeve was held in place by a bunch of bent tabs near its front
lip, that you had to poke your fingers around and push flat again. Well, do you remember which tabs were bent down (or up) to hold the sleeve in
place? Never mind, its not critical. But you'll need to do the same thing with the new sleeve. These two pictures show the tabs that were bent down and up
on my OEM head unit sleeve - I only point out the left bottom tabs, but the corresponding tabs on right and top were also bent. Its soft metal, so
as long as you can reach the tabs, you can unbend them for sleeve removal.
48. Here's my new sleeve on the bench...
49. ... And in the dash cutout, but without any tabs bent yet. The tabs aren't the same shape or in the same
locations as the OEM sleeve, but that doesn't matter. Same idea here: put the sleeve into the dash with all tabs flat, firmly seat the sleeve into
the dash as deep as the lip will let it go, then bend the tabs down and up to hold it in place...
50. ... And finally with tabs bent to hold the sleeve firmly. Just do one left and right on bottom and wiggle - OK? Then do one left and right on top and wiggle - still OK?
Don't go nuts here - bend as few tabs as needed to stabilize the sleeve in the dash... once the head unit in slid into place, its mass and fairly tight fit will hold
everything in place. AND - remember: don't bend those tabs any further than necessary to hold the sleeve in place - someday you may want to remove it, and
if you go crazy here, you'll have a HELL of a time with those tabs later.
The Green Wire...
Now, back to that orphaned green wire that came off the OEM sleeve... based on what I've learned in the past week or so, just
tape it off. That wire is NOT the head unit ground wire, which is actually located in PLUG A and connected to one of the car's passenger
compartment ground points. The green wire is part of your car's alarm system, and when its grounded, the alarm system thinks the radio's
been removed. So, do whatever suits you (tape the connector, cut the connector off and tape the wire end, etc), but don't let it touch a ground point.
If the green wire isn't secured and somehow DOES find a ground contact despite your efforts, while the car is locked and the alarm system armed, it will
trigger the horns and all the other embarrassing aspects of the alarm attention-getters. So don't be half-assed here: whatever you do, make sure it can't
be undone by road bumps, spirited driving, or roaming passenger feet.
If the ground contact occurs when the car is unlocked and the alarm system unarmed (such as when you're removing the OEM head unit), the horns, etc
obviously won't be triggered, but it will cause the door LEDs to double-blink instead of single-blink the next time the car is locked. The car will still lock,
and the alarm will still monitor the other alarm contacts in the car (doors, luggage and engine lids, glove box, etc), but the head unit will no longer be protected.
Also, the head unit alarm will send a signal to your immobilizer module to refuse any attempt at programming, or re-programming, your remote key FOBs.
If the green wire takes you to where your LEDs are double-flashing, don't panic - as long as the cause is the green wire being grounded, unlock the car,
un-ground and secure the green wire (do it RIGHT this time!), and then re-lock the car after exiting. Once the green wire ground "fault" has been fixed,
the act of locking the car "resets" the alarm module and you should get back to the LEDs doing the familiar single-flash once the car is locked... and you can
once again program and/or re-program your remote key FOBs.
51, 52 & 53. [ Images removed - no longer applicable ]
54. Ah, installation complete, head unit in place with bezel installed and removable faceplate locked in. Nothing left to do but figure out how the unit is operated and then put
on some tunes!
55. How the new unit looks in the dash from a distance... definitely not a "vintage" look, but its okay for me.
While stuffing everything into the dash, which was a LOT harder than I expected - those splices are bulky and catch on EVERYTHING on the way in - the
"OEM antenna and connector" came apart - and to my surprise, turned out to be a USA-standard antenna plug with a right angle European adapter on the end of it.
Quite unexpected!! So is this the way my car was released from the factory, or did a PO make a change somewhere? I have no idea. Anyway, if your head unit has the
same right angle connector mine did (see pictures at the start of this thread), give the right-angle connector a bit of a tug to see if its just an adapter - maybe your antenna
is also ready-as-is for the new head unit.
After installing and un-installing the new head unit and mash of wiring and splices several times, I figured out that there is a deep unused empty space behind, below and to the
left of the head unit cutout area, whereas the area directly below and to the right of the cutout area is VERY busy. The trick is to reach up into that empty space from below the dash
next to central hump and, with a hooked finger, pull the three dash cables (Plug C1 cable, Plug A cable, and antenna cable) gently down and towards the drivers side of the
cutout while carefully stuffing everything down and towards the left from the front of the dash - its sounds difficult but once you get started it makes sense. The antenna
cable is more flexible than it first appears, and can make a hard right-angle turn towards the driver-side as soon as it emerges from the antenna port (if your antenna plug has one
of those right angle adapters, you probably don't have to do this - the cable will naturally run along the back of the head unit). Doing the install this way allowed the new head
unit to just slide right in to the sleeve and lock, leaving the cables no-where near anything they could get snagged on.
As an aside - I took out my glove box thinking it would make either removing the OEM head unit or installing the new head unit easier. It did, a little, but was a lot
of hassle for little benefit. But what I DID learn from doing so was that the left-side glove box "slider" (those two black plastic hook-like things on either side of the glove
box that slide in and out of the dash as you raise and lower the box lid, and prevent the lid from just swinging down into your shins) slides up into the dash and its hook
stops JUST UNDER the passenger-side back end of the head unit. So, if you stuff your wiring into the dash so that it bunches up below the passenger side of the head unit,
the next time you try to open the glove box, its highly likely that slider hook will snag a wire and either: a) prevent the lid from opening; or b) slide out as usual, yanking
a wire out of the back of the head unit as it does. Moral - stuff the wires and splices into the lower driver-side (left side) space behind the new head unit.
[more to follow, including sketches of wiring for the harnesses and options to my head/amp/speakers setup]
Rod
Time to think a moment about the permanent installation of the new head unit before stuffing it all into the dash.
46. and 47. Remember the hassles of removing the OEM head unit sleeve? That stupid sleeve was held in place by a bunch of bent tabs near its front
lip, that you had to poke your fingers around and push flat again. Well, do you remember which tabs were bent down (or up) to hold the sleeve in
place? Never mind, its not critical. But you'll need to do the same thing with the new sleeve. These two pictures show the tabs that were bent down and up
on my OEM head unit sleeve - I only point out the left bottom tabs, but the corresponding tabs on right and top were also bent. Its soft metal, so
as long as you can reach the tabs, you can unbend them for sleeve removal.
48. Here's my new sleeve on the bench...
49. ... And in the dash cutout, but without any tabs bent yet. The tabs aren't the same shape or in the same
locations as the OEM sleeve, but that doesn't matter. Same idea here: put the sleeve into the dash with all tabs flat, firmly seat the sleeve into
the dash as deep as the lip will let it go, then bend the tabs down and up to hold it in place...
50. ... And finally with tabs bent to hold the sleeve firmly. Just do one left and right on bottom and wiggle - OK? Then do one left and right on top and wiggle - still OK?
Don't go nuts here - bend as few tabs as needed to stabilize the sleeve in the dash... once the head unit in slid into place, its mass and fairly tight fit will hold
everything in place. AND - remember: don't bend those tabs any further than necessary to hold the sleeve in place - someday you may want to remove it, and
if you go crazy here, you'll have a HELL of a time with those tabs later.
The Green Wire...
Now, back to that orphaned green wire that came off the OEM sleeve... based on what I've learned in the past week or so, just
tape it off. That wire is NOT the head unit ground wire, which is actually located in PLUG A and connected to one of the car's passenger
compartment ground points. The green wire is part of your car's alarm system, and when its grounded, the alarm system thinks the radio's
been removed. So, do whatever suits you (tape the connector, cut the connector off and tape the wire end, etc), but don't let it touch a ground point.
If the green wire isn't secured and somehow DOES find a ground contact despite your efforts, while the car is locked and the alarm system armed, it will
trigger the horns and all the other embarrassing aspects of the alarm attention-getters. So don't be half-assed here: whatever you do, make sure it can't
be undone by road bumps, spirited driving, or roaming passenger feet.
If the ground contact occurs when the car is unlocked and the alarm system unarmed (such as when you're removing the OEM head unit), the horns, etc
obviously won't be triggered, but it will cause the door LEDs to double-blink instead of single-blink the next time the car is locked. The car will still lock,
and the alarm will still monitor the other alarm contacts in the car (doors, luggage and engine lids, glove box, etc), but the head unit will no longer be protected.
Also, the head unit alarm will send a signal to your immobilizer module to refuse any attempt at programming, or re-programming, your remote key FOBs.
If the green wire takes you to where your LEDs are double-flashing, don't panic - as long as the cause is the green wire being grounded, unlock the car,
un-ground and secure the green wire (do it RIGHT this time!), and then re-lock the car after exiting. Once the green wire ground "fault" has been fixed,
the act of locking the car "resets" the alarm module and you should get back to the LEDs doing the familiar single-flash once the car is locked... and you can
once again program and/or re-program your remote key FOBs.
51, 52 & 53. [ Images removed - no longer applicable ]
54. Ah, installation complete, head unit in place with bezel installed and removable faceplate locked in. Nothing left to do but figure out how the unit is operated and then put
on some tunes!
55. How the new unit looks in the dash from a distance... definitely not a "vintage" look, but its okay for me.
While stuffing everything into the dash, which was a LOT harder than I expected - those splices are bulky and catch on EVERYTHING on the way in - the
"OEM antenna and connector" came apart - and to my surprise, turned out to be a USA-standard antenna plug with a right angle European adapter on the end of it.
Quite unexpected!! So is this the way my car was released from the factory, or did a PO make a change somewhere? I have no idea. Anyway, if your head unit has the
same right angle connector mine did (see pictures at the start of this thread), give the right-angle connector a bit of a tug to see if its just an adapter - maybe your antenna
is also ready-as-is for the new head unit.
After installing and un-installing the new head unit and mash of wiring and splices several times, I figured out that there is a deep unused empty space behind, below and to the
left of the head unit cutout area, whereas the area directly below and to the right of the cutout area is VERY busy. The trick is to reach up into that empty space from below the dash
next to central hump and, with a hooked finger, pull the three dash cables (Plug C1 cable, Plug A cable, and antenna cable) gently down and towards the drivers side of the
cutout while carefully stuffing everything down and towards the left from the front of the dash - its sounds difficult but once you get started it makes sense. The antenna
cable is more flexible than it first appears, and can make a hard right-angle turn towards the driver-side as soon as it emerges from the antenna port (if your antenna plug has one
of those right angle adapters, you probably don't have to do this - the cable will naturally run along the back of the head unit). Doing the install this way allowed the new head
unit to just slide right in to the sleeve and lock, leaving the cables no-where near anything they could get snagged on.
As an aside - I took out my glove box thinking it would make either removing the OEM head unit or installing the new head unit easier. It did, a little, but was a lot
of hassle for little benefit. But what I DID learn from doing so was that the left-side glove box "slider" (those two black plastic hook-like things on either side of the glove
box that slide in and out of the dash as you raise and lower the box lid, and prevent the lid from just swinging down into your shins) slides up into the dash and its hook
stops JUST UNDER the passenger-side back end of the head unit. So, if you stuff your wiring into the dash so that it bunches up below the passenger side of the head unit,
the next time you try to open the glove box, its highly likely that slider hook will snag a wire and either: a) prevent the lid from opening; or b) slide out as usual, yanking
a wire out of the back of the head unit as it does. Moral - stuff the wires and splices into the lower driver-side (left side) space behind the new head unit.
[more to follow, including sketches of wiring for the harnesses and options to my head/amp/speakers setup]
Rod
Last edited by f11; 08-08-2013 at 02:03 AM. Reason: Removed detailed images and discussion on how the green wire works... - R
08-03-2013, 07:12 PM
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I popped the rear speakers out of my car for some quick measurements and a look into the cutouts. My rear speakers are Nokia 8 ohm (NOT 4 ohm as stated repeatedly in other threads), with a back-of-magnet to front-of-mounting tab depth of 1 3/4" and a magnet diameter of 2 3/8". Its a full audio range (well, not much at the bass end) one-way unit:
Front view of right rear speaker:
Rear view of right rear speaker ( note different size wiring connectors - big tab on right is "+", little tab on left is "-" )
Below the mounting cutout and a bit aft is a BIG HONKIN' seat-belt roller in its cage. If you try to drop a replacement in that cutout that's much deeper than the OEM unit, or has a
larger diameter magnet, you could have some interference issues with that cage.
On the bright side, if you JUST touch the roller mechanism with the new speaker, all you touch is the cage which is a non-moving part. So the worst that might happen is that you
may get some resonance at certain frequencies, or the speaker may not mount flush with the panel. The resonance can only be fixed by preventing contact with the speaker; the
non-flush gap will probably be hidden by the panel carpeting when you install the grill.
Most of what I've read in these forums suggests there's not much to gain by replacing the OEM speakers, unless they're shot (torn diaphragm, disintegrating foam boundary, damaged
magnet, etc)... while the rear speakers are full range units, they're too small to contribute much to the low bass end, and too far behind and below the tall headrests to feed
much of the high end to your front seat environment. Most describe their function as "sonic space fillers".
If you have to replace them, don't spend your entire audio budget on a new set - $50/pair 4-in 4-ohm 2-way set is LOTS. BUT - but be aware of the maximum depth you have to work
with... just 1 3/4-in (or 44.5mm)... and your RMS power rating. For the latter concern, if you decided to do what I've done and retain the OEM Nokia amp, then you want to stay in the vicinity
of 30W RMS for the new speakers. If you go nuts and put in 100W RMS units, your poor amp won't be able to drive them. If you put in a larger amp, then match the new rear speakers
to the amp output for the rear channels (RMS power NOT Total Power).
For example, I put in a set of Ultimate Model T2-4021 ($40/pair at Future Shop) that matched the OEM mounting holes perfectly, but were about 48mm deep AND had a much larger
diameter magnet. I managed to wedge them into the OEM mounting holes, but they were tight up against the seat-belt cages on both sides. They also couldn't accept the OEM grills,
so they definitely don't look OEM anymore. Because my car's a cabriolet, nobody ever looks into the darkness of the back seat area anyway, so I don't care. YMMV.
Front view of right rear speaker:
Rear view of right rear speaker ( note different size wiring connectors - big tab on right is "+", little tab on left is "-" )
Below the mounting cutout and a bit aft is a BIG HONKIN' seat-belt roller in its cage. If you try to drop a replacement in that cutout that's much deeper than the OEM unit, or has a
larger diameter magnet, you could have some interference issues with that cage.
On the bright side, if you JUST touch the roller mechanism with the new speaker, all you touch is the cage which is a non-moving part. So the worst that might happen is that you
may get some resonance at certain frequencies, or the speaker may not mount flush with the panel. The resonance can only be fixed by preventing contact with the speaker; the
non-flush gap will probably be hidden by the panel carpeting when you install the grill.
Most of what I've read in these forums suggests there's not much to gain by replacing the OEM speakers, unless they're shot (torn diaphragm, disintegrating foam boundary, damaged
magnet, etc)... while the rear speakers are full range units, they're too small to contribute much to the low bass end, and too far behind and below the tall headrests to feed
much of the high end to your front seat environment. Most describe their function as "sonic space fillers".
If you have to replace them, don't spend your entire audio budget on a new set - $50/pair 4-in 4-ohm 2-way set is LOTS. BUT - but be aware of the maximum depth you have to work
with... just 1 3/4-in (or 44.5mm)... and your RMS power rating. For the latter concern, if you decided to do what I've done and retain the OEM Nokia amp, then you want to stay in the vicinity
of 30W RMS for the new speakers. If you go nuts and put in 100W RMS units, your poor amp won't be able to drive them. If you put in a larger amp, then match the new rear speakers
to the amp output for the rear channels (RMS power NOT Total Power).
For example, I put in a set of Ultimate Model T2-4021 ($40/pair at Future Shop) that matched the OEM mounting holes perfectly, but were about 48mm deep AND had a much larger
diameter magnet. I managed to wedge them into the OEM mounting holes, but they were tight up against the seat-belt cages on both sides. They also couldn't accept the OEM grills,
so they definitely don't look OEM anymore. Because my car's a cabriolet, nobody ever looks into the darkness of the back seat area anyway, so I don't care. YMMV.
Last edited by f11; 08-07-2013 at 10:48 PM.
08-04-2013, 09:58 PM
#18
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[ Msg being edited - Images 57 & 58 regarding the green wire connection removed as no longer applicable - 07Aug13 ] - R
[ My apologies for anyone looking for additional info from my installation investigation... I'm working on a set of drawings that will clarify a lot of issues while trying to match up a new head unit to the amp, and also attempting to dope out from the schematics how a new head unit would connect to a system without a factory amp. Hope to post shortly. - 20Aug13 ] - R
[ Good Lord!! I forgot to post the drawings - geez, I AM getting old and forgetful... sorry about that. Here are the first three drawings in PDF format... - 09Oct13 - R ]
Dwg01: OEM CR210 Becker Head Unit connections to OEM Nokia Amp (non-DSP), with pinout info...
Dwg02: OEM CR210 Becker Head Unit connections direct to OEM Speakers, with pinout info...
Dwg03: Detail of OEM Nokia Amp 25-pin connector to power/GND/speedo and speakers
(Woofer/Mid-Tweeter combo plus rear full-range)
[ My apologies for anyone looking for additional info from my installation investigation... I'm working on a set of drawings that will clarify a lot of issues while trying to match up a new head unit to the amp, and also attempting to dope out from the schematics how a new head unit would connect to a system without a factory amp. Hope to post shortly. - 20Aug13 ] - R
[ Good Lord!! I forgot to post the drawings - geez, I AM getting old and forgetful... sorry about that. Here are the first three drawings in PDF format... - 09Oct13 - R ]
Dwg01: OEM CR210 Becker Head Unit connections to OEM Nokia Amp (non-DSP), with pinout info...
Dwg02: OEM CR210 Becker Head Unit connections direct to OEM Speakers, with pinout info...
Dwg03: Detail of OEM Nokia Amp 25-pin connector to power/GND/speedo and speakers
(Woofer/Mid-Tweeter combo plus rear full-range)
Last edited by f11; 10-10-2013 at 02:56 AM.
08-04-2013, 10:42 PM
#19
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[ msg being edited - stay tuned - 07Aug13 ] - R
[ ... and here are the last two drawings - that's all I got done - 09Oct13 - R ]
Dwg04: Wiring for new head unit to speakers, either through OEM Nokia Amp or direct,
showing new wiring harnesses needed with pin-outs
Dwg05: Detail of new head unit wiring and connectors, with pinout info...
I hope these drawings are helpful to someone in the future, and save them some digging around. If you spot any errors (especially in the non-amp version of wiring), please let me know specifically what the error is and how it should be corrected - I'll update the drawing accordingly, and give you credit for the revision.
Rod
[ ... and here are the last two drawings - that's all I got done - 09Oct13 - R ]
Dwg04: Wiring for new head unit to speakers, either through OEM Nokia Amp or direct,
showing new wiring harnesses needed with pin-outs
Dwg05: Detail of new head unit wiring and connectors, with pinout info...
I hope these drawings are helpful to someone in the future, and save them some digging around. If you spot any errors (especially in the non-amp version of wiring), please let me know specifically what the error is and how it should be corrected - I'll update the drawing accordingly, and give you credit for the revision.
Rod
Last edited by f11; 10-10-2013 at 02:59 AM. Reason: Added PDF drawings of new head wiring
10-10-2013, 03:02 AM
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I've FINALLY added the drawings I promised two months ago to this thread. That wraps up the documentation of my head replacement. Thanks for your patience! - Rod
10-10-2013, 06:25 PM
#21
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Thanks, I think I need a professional. Does anyone remember the 8 Track? What was it 4 speaker wires a ground and a power wire wrapped around a fuse. That's the way I remember it. But tech is so much better today
.
04-28-2014, 08:29 PM
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08-17-2014, 11:57 AM
#25
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I don't seem to have the permissions necessary to create an album, so I'll try this the hard way.
I recently decided to upgrade my CR210 head unit to something iPod / CD compatible, and went searching for a one-stop-shop source of info, especially images, that would help me do what should be a simple DIY mod... without success. There are bits and pieces of info everywhere, and decent images of the OEM head unit and dash wiring are very hard to find. I spent hours scouring & reading various forum threads, Becker's and Crutchfield's website, etc etc and was left seriously wanting. So I figured I'd provide the images I was searching for myself for the next guy who wants to do this upgrade.
44. THE MOMENT OF TRUTH... a test installation with the head unit NOT installed in the dash...
(NOTE: if during any part of this process you see/smell smoke or a spark, or the power suddenly goes out (blown fuse), disconnect all plugs and antenna
from car to head unit, and go back to recheck your wiring - something is wrong. Oh, and you might need a new fuse, too.)
FOR MY INSTALLATION, RE-USING THE OEM NOKIA AMP AND OEM SPEAKERS WITH A NEW HEAD UNIT VIA STOCK WIRING:
- plug new C1 harness RCA plugs into new head unit Front/Back Line Out ports...
- plug new head unit plug/harness into new head unit...
- connect antenna with adapter into new head unit antenna port...
- Put the radio fuse back in (in my '97 993 C2 Cab, its Fuse 38) ...
- - > you DID remove the fuse before taking the OEM head unit out - RIGHT? If you didn't, check it now, its probably blown - get a new 15A fuse, plus a spare...
- No Smoke? Fuse didn't blow? Good... do a power up test...
- - > With key out of ignition, or in ignition but turned totally off, the head unit should NOT power up...
- - > to check that head doesn't power up, push head unit power button (more than once) - nothing interesting should happen...
- Why no power-up? Because while the wiring you did on the harnesses provides constant 12V power to the head unit from the battery, the radio ON button
is only ENABLED by the ignition switch turned CW at least to the first "click", or ACC position (no warning lights on dash). And you haven't inserted/turned the key yet.
- NOW insert and turn the key to the first "click", the ACC position...
- Still no smoke/sparks? Good - now push the head unit ON button again (just once)...
- - > the head unit should power up and all the pretty lights should come on...
- No smoke/sparks? Head unit pretty lights came on? Great, you're almost there...
I recently decided to upgrade my CR210 head unit to something iPod / CD compatible, and went searching for a one-stop-shop source of info, especially images, that would help me do what should be a simple DIY mod... without success. There are bits and pieces of info everywhere, and decent images of the OEM head unit and dash wiring are very hard to find. I spent hours scouring & reading various forum threads, Becker's and Crutchfield's website, etc etc and was left seriously wanting. So I figured I'd provide the images I was searching for myself for the next guy who wants to do this upgrade.
44. THE MOMENT OF TRUTH... a test installation with the head unit NOT installed in the dash...
(NOTE: if during any part of this process you see/smell smoke or a spark, or the power suddenly goes out (blown fuse), disconnect all plugs and antenna
from car to head unit, and go back to recheck your wiring - something is wrong. Oh, and you might need a new fuse, too.)
FOR MY INSTALLATION, RE-USING THE OEM NOKIA AMP AND OEM SPEAKERS WITH A NEW HEAD UNIT VIA STOCK WIRING:
- plug new C1 harness RCA plugs into new head unit Front/Back Line Out ports...
- plug new head unit plug/harness into new head unit...
- connect antenna with adapter into new head unit antenna port...
- Put the radio fuse back in (in my '97 993 C2 Cab, its Fuse 38) ...
- - > you DID remove the fuse before taking the OEM head unit out - RIGHT? If you didn't, check it now, its probably blown - get a new 15A fuse, plus a spare...
- No Smoke? Fuse didn't blow? Good... do a power up test...
- - > With key out of ignition, or in ignition but turned totally off, the head unit should NOT power up...
- - > to check that head doesn't power up, push head unit power button (more than once) - nothing interesting should happen...
- Why no power-up? Because while the wiring you did on the harnesses provides constant 12V power to the head unit from the battery, the radio ON button
is only ENABLED by the ignition switch turned CW at least to the first "click", or ACC position (no warning lights on dash). And you haven't inserted/turned the key yet.
- NOW insert and turn the key to the first "click", the ACC position...
- Still no smoke/sparks? Good - now push the head unit ON button again (just once)...
- - > the head unit should power up and all the pretty lights should come on...
- No smoke/sparks? Head unit pretty lights came on? Great, you're almost there...
Wow this is super informative! Thanks!
May i ask two questions? First, I read that your aftermarket HU relies on the switched 12v pin to be HOT (ignition on) to turn on. However, my becker cr-210 is able to turn on even if the ignition is switched totally off and my key is not in the car. Is this a special function of the becker HU or of my car's wiring?
Secondly, I noted with some interest that rear your defogger switch has the icon of a side rear view mirror! I havent seen that before .... Mine is the standard rectangle icon w squiggly lines...
