World record number of 993's get tie rod pinned today in San Diego County!
02-06-2013, 11:23 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
Those who want to join in the OC group tie rod pinning ...
The plan is for me to get the jig from chaoscreature this weekend. My next few weekends are open, so I was thinking I'd have those interested in coming by for the day let me know which weekend (and which day) works best for them. If we can get everyone done on a Saturday, that would be my preference. If not, then we can schedule a few days at my home if you like. Just post which day (or days) work best for you. I'll start by saying I'd prefer to meet on Feb 16 or Feb 23.
Just a few questions about the pinning:
1) Is it best to pin the rods under load (i.e. car on all four wheels) or in the air? My guess would be that there would less added shear stress and a more natural position to pin the rods while under load.
2) Where is everyone pinning these rods? From front-to-back, from below-to-top or some arbitrary angle? Does it really matter?
3) Are the rods being pinned perpendicular to the rod length or at an oblique angle? It's hard to see this from the pictures of the tool I've seen.
Marc G.
The plan is for me to get the jig from chaoscreature this weekend. My next few weekends are open, so I was thinking I'd have those interested in coming by for the day let me know which weekend (and which day) works best for them. If we can get everyone done on a Saturday, that would be my preference. If not, then we can schedule a few days at my home if you like. Just post which day (or days) work best for you. I'll start by saying I'd prefer to meet on Feb 16 or Feb 23.
Just a few questions about the pinning:
1) Is it best to pin the rods under load (i.e. car on all four wheels) or in the air? My guess would be that there would less added shear stress and a more natural position to pin the rods while under load.
2) Where is everyone pinning these rods? From front-to-back, from below-to-top or some arbitrary angle? Does it really matter?
3) Are the rods being pinned perpendicular to the rod length or at an oblique angle? It's hard to see this from the pictures of the tool I've seen.
Marc G.
02-06-2013, 11:40 PM
#47
Nordschleife Master
Marc,
Thanks for taking the lead on this. Perhaps one of the SD guys could come up as a mentor, some cold brews should be enough to entice at least one of them!
As far as day, either of those will work for me.
Depending on what the response is above, I can go get a bunch of "pins" from the HW store, someone just needs to specify exactly what needs to be bought.
Thanks for taking the lead on this. Perhaps one of the SD guys could come up as a mentor, some cold brews should be enough to entice at least one of them!
As far as day, either of those will work for me.
Depending on what the response is above, I can go get a bunch of "pins" from the HW store, someone just needs to specify exactly what needs to be bought.
02-06-2013, 11:42 PM
#48
Burning Brakes
There are still 5 sets of pins in the kit, so you guys can get 5 cars done without buying anything.
Someone in the group should volunteer to pick up 2 more 5/16" drill bits and a few more pins though for the next people.
McMaster Carr PN: 90692A759 is good for the spring pins, or anything equivalent to this.
Someone in the group should volunteer to pick up 2 more 5/16" drill bits and a few more pins though for the next people.
McMaster Carr PN: 90692A759 is good for the spring pins, or anything equivalent to this.
02-06-2013, 11:48 PM
#49
Instructor
Very interesting thread, almost "Cult of Pinning". Was factory so underminded when they designed 993 style tie rod? Took about 30 years of 911 evolution to get to it.
Remarkable, in 1990 Porsche patented even more elaborate design:
(see patent here)
Curious if pinning tool will work on that also, I bet you'll need 2 pins to make it right
IMHO For those who need solid rods factory had RS setup.
Oleg.
Remarkable, in 1990 Porsche patented even more elaborate design:
(see patent here)
Curious if pinning tool will work on that also, I bet you'll need 2 pins to make it right
IMHO For those who need solid rods factory had RS setup.
Oleg.
02-06-2013, 11:48 PM
#50
Burning Brakes
Oops missed a post or two...
the pins are split pins, 5/16" x 1.50"
The inner tie rods rotate by nature and are symmetrical. There is no advantage to pinning up/down or at an angle. Pick the most comfortable position so that you are holding the drill orthogonal to the tie rod. If you **** the drill at an angle it will wear the jig out faster.
The jig was designed so that you can line it up with the tie rod boot and hit the right spot. Refer to the pictures earlier in the post.
the pins are split pins, 5/16" x 1.50"
The inner tie rods rotate by nature and are symmetrical. There is no advantage to pinning up/down or at an angle. Pick the most comfortable position so that you are holding the drill orthogonal to the tie rod. If you **** the drill at an angle it will wear the jig out faster.
The jig was designed so that you can line it up with the tie rod boot and hit the right spot. Refer to the pictures earlier in the post.
02-07-2013, 12:12 AM
#51
Rennlist Member
Thanks for answering questions chaoscreature. Still not sure if it would be more beneficial to pin the rods under load or not. I'm not sure if what you are saying is it doesn't matter or not.
Let's get a head count for Orange County folks. Then we can determine how many pins we'll need. Please post here if you are interested. I'll start by saying "mgianzero" will be first on the list. I'll probably pin my car before the group DIY so I can make sure everything goes smoothly. I have a good, commercial drill and bits for the job.
Beer and pizza will most likely be needed! We need to out number the guys in San Diego (just friendly competition). Just how much beer and pizza did you guys go thru?
Marc G.
Let's get a head count for Orange County folks. Then we can determine how many pins we'll need. Please post here if you are interested. I'll start by saying "mgianzero" will be first on the list. I'll probably pin my car before the group DIY so I can make sure everything goes smoothly. I have a good, commercial drill and bits for the job.
Beer and pizza will most likely be needed! We need to out number the guys in San Diego (just friendly competition). Just how much beer and pizza did you guys go thru?
Marc G.
02-07-2013, 12:38 AM
#52
Burning Brakes
Marc,
I can't think of an easy way to pre-load the tie rods. If you aren't actively turning the wheel the tie rods are not loaded. Besides, if you pushed the tie rod in on both sides and pinned them then you would need an alignment afterwards because your front toe would be out.
I can't think of an easy way to pre-load the tie rods. If you aren't actively turning the wheel the tie rods are not loaded. Besides, if you pushed the tie rod in on both sides and pinned them then you would need an alignment afterwards because your front toe would be out.
02-07-2013, 01:07 AM
#53
Nordschleife Master
Are the pins just standard cotter pins? 5/16x 1.5 per above. Those have to be like $0.39 each?
as far as pizza, it is probably just easiest to take a head count at the time and call it in, or one of us can make a run. I figure if a few of us each bring a 6 pack or two, that should be plenty.
I don't eat, or drink that much, but I am probably below the average.
oh, and put me in line!
as far as pizza, it is probably just easiest to take a head count at the time and call it in, or one of us can make a run. I figure if a few of us each bring a 6 pack or two, that should be plenty.
I don't eat, or drink that much, but I am probably below the average.
oh, and put me in line!
02-07-2013, 01:27 AM
#54
Burning Brakes
Not Cotter Pins, Roll Pins. They are cheap still, just not quite as common.
We are lucky in San Diego and have a place called Marshall's - Ace Hardware which is an awesome hardware store that actually sells... hardware! I would volunteer to get more, but I won't be able to get there during business hours this week.
Check out the post above for the McMaster parts. Someone could order a bag of 50 of them for $9?
We are lucky in San Diego and have a place called Marshall's - Ace Hardware which is an awesome hardware store that actually sells... hardware! I would volunteer to get more, but I won't be able to get there during business hours this week.
Check out the post above for the McMaster parts. Someone could order a bag of 50 of them for $9?
02-07-2013, 01:46 AM
#55
Nordschleife Master
Not Cotter Pins, Roll Pins. They are cheap still, just not quite as common.
We are lucky in San Diego and have a place called Marshall's - Ace Hardware which is an awesome hardware store that actually sells... hardware! I would volunteer to get more, but I won't be able to get there during business hours this week.
Check out the post above for the McMaster parts. Someone could order a bag of 50 of them for $9?
We are lucky in San Diego and have a place called Marshall's - Ace Hardware which is an awesome hardware store that actually sells... hardware! I would volunteer to get more, but I won't be able to get there during business hours this week.
Check out the post above for the McMaster parts. Someone could order a bag of 50 of them for $9?
02-07-2013, 03:33 AM
#57
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Kika,
Let me know if you have any luck finding the pins. I would try McFadden-Dale Industrial Hardware in Santa Ana off of Edinger. They are just off of the 55.
Count me in on this mod; would be great to meet other RL'ers!
Cheers,
John
Let me know if you have any luck finding the pins. I would try McFadden-Dale Industrial Hardware in Santa Ana off of Edinger. They are just off of the 55.
Count me in on this mod; would be great to meet other RL'ers!
Cheers,
John
02-07-2013, 10:04 AM
#58
Rennlist Member
Do NOT cheap out on the roll pins .... and yes, the better ones are still cheap, leaving lots left for beer & pizza 
.
The better fastner suppliers offer 8mm od pins in several grades - they are not 'cotter pins'.
I cut the following text from my much earlier post discussing an aspect of pinning - in an attempt to explain the function of the pin ...
The tie rod rubber mounting, and the 'interesting' spring suspension above are techniques of manufacturers to abate transmitted noise & vibration (NVH): solid tie rods are generally offered aftermarket .... I have installed Lemforder 'solids' in my Passats at minimal cost: the solids offered by Porsche are north of $700 AFAIK, and only the solid inner half can be used on cars above true RS hub height - not a great deal.
What else ... drill at whatever angle is comfortable .... I went upwards at ~45 deg from the front: the tie rod could care less, as it is symmetric.
Will the front toe-in change? .... hard to say: I did tweak my tie rods a bit to have a perfectly centered steering wheel for hands off straight line stability on a flat road - and close to 5 min total toe-in.
Also, your alignment guy will love doing your car next time around, as setting toe-in becomes an act of precision - it is clearly not so with stock rubber mounted parts, being more of a running guess.
.The better fastner suppliers offer 8mm od pins in several grades - they are not 'cotter pins'.
I cut the following text from my much earlier post discussing an aspect of pinning - in an attempt to explain the function of the pin ...
Correct - the pin is in shear: the roll pin is of tempered spring steel, and slightly oversized to the final drill size; therefore, when the pin is driven (tapped) home, it compresses radially for an interference fit. That leaves it exerting an axial force on the tie rod components ( right angle hole through both barrel components) that "pins" the rubber mounted inner barrel to the solid outer barrel ..... the outer is 'solid' as it is secured to the rack end by a zero play ball joint - and the whole objective was to keep the outer (inner) half tied down for the ride, to minimize delay to steering inputs due to the designed in rubber mounting.
IMHO, a roll pin is far better than any bolting arrangement - and **yes, it does capture both walls of both barrels**.
IMHO, a roll pin is far better than any bolting arrangement - and **yes, it does capture both walls of both barrels**.
What else ... drill at whatever angle is comfortable .... I went upwards at ~45 deg from the front: the tie rod could care less, as it is symmetric.
Will the front toe-in change? .... hard to say: I did tweak my tie rods a bit to have a perfectly centered steering wheel for hands off straight line stability on a flat road - and close to 5 min total toe-in.
Also, your alignment guy will love doing your car next time around, as setting toe-in becomes an act of precision - it is clearly not so with stock rubber mounted parts, being more of a running guess.
02-07-2013, 11:34 AM
#59
Rennlist Member
Garth -
Thanks for all your input, as well as your idea to pin these rods. You are a wealth of information and a valuable asset to the Rennlist website! Cheers to Garth!
I can order the pizza. However, I warn you that I only go for the best pizza in town since I am Italian! There's a place near my home that makes everything fresh but they are a little expensive. But it's the perfect choice for Porsche guys, right? There's also a liquor store next to them for the beer.
Hope to see a lot of RL'ers for the pinning. The more the merrier. Been thinking maybe we should meet up for C&C that morning and ride from there to my home for the project. Everyone in on that?
Marc G.
Last edited by mgianzero; 02-07-2013 at 03:11 PM.
02-07-2013, 09:46 PM
#60
Nordschleife Master
I found roll pins at Lowes and OSH, but they are 5/16"x2.0
Lowes carries Hillman and OSH has Servalite, the are both priced at $1.39 each at both places. It probably makes more sense to order directly from McMaster Carr at $9.65 for a bag of 50. I went ahead and ordered them, so I will bring them, we can package the remaining pins with the jig when it goes to its next location.
Marc, that pizza sounds terrific. C&C sounds like a good idea, not sure I want to get up that early or not yet, so I may just meet up after C&C.
Lowes carries Hillman and OSH has Servalite, the are both priced at $1.39 each at both places. It probably makes more sense to order directly from McMaster Carr at $9.65 for a bag of 50. I went ahead and ordered them, so I will bring them, we can package the remaining pins with the jig when it goes to its next location.
Marc, that pizza sounds terrific. C&C sounds like a good idea, not sure I want to get up that early or not yet, so I may just meet up after C&C.