A Little Spin in My Early Morning Spin
12-16-2012, 08:59 AM
#16
Three Wheelin'
When I was twelve my older brother took me down to an empty shopping center parking lot covered w/ about an inch of icy snow
I was twelve and had already been caught once driving his E-type around the neighborhood. Guess he figured if I was going to sneak and drive he wanted me to know how.
.
12-16-2012, 12:23 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
No doubt that the consequences could be drastic, and repetitive spinning wouldn't make you many friends. But I can say that I, and a number of other guys I know, learned to drive 911's on the track in the PCA Maverick Region DE program in Texas. We primarily ran at Motorsport Ranch, then Eagles Canyon, and a few events at Texas Motor Speedway on the "ALMS" 2.5 mile track layout.
The bottom line was it was a very well run and safe program, that brought us up one rung at a time. Did anyone spin? Occasionally, but without excessive consequence, except for one Evo that showed up for one event. Yes, a black flag would result, requiring a trip to the hot pit to have a conversation with the Marshal, where you explained what happened, and to reflect on what you learned. If no car damage, you were typically given the green light to go back out. My first spin taught me gobs about what your right foot can do for maintaining rear grip.
IMO, the moral here is ANY training, AX or DE, can pay big dividends on the street when such episodes rear their ugly head.
The bottom line was it was a very well run and safe program, that brought us up one rung at a time. Did anyone spin? Occasionally, but without excessive consequence, except for one Evo that showed up for one event. Yes, a black flag would result, requiring a trip to the hot pit to have a conversation with the Marshal, where you explained what happened, and to reflect on what you learned. If no car damage, you were typically given the green light to go back out. My first spin taught me gobs about what your right foot can do for maintaining rear grip.
IMO, the moral here is ANY training, AX or DE, can pay big dividends on the street when such episodes rear their ugly head.
True. Although an off like this usually brings up a black flag and often other consequences. I don't think anyone will welcome a driver back if he spins 2-3 times per track day on consistent basis.
In general, I think that autocross is much more accessible, cheaper and easier on the car. More importantly, it lets the driver step over the limit repeatedly without any danger. Which is the only way to learn where that limit is and what to do when it approaches. Personally, I got into autocrossing many years ago because I've spun my mid-engined car on the street a couple of times and scared myself enough to contemplate the possible future.
Also, what Al describes is absolutely great. Provided you can find a snow-covered parking lot somewhere and local law or the lot's owners don't hassle you. This is the most concentrated and fastest way to learn. You'll need a season of autocross to duplicate an hour of seat time in those conditions.
In general, I think that autocross is much more accessible, cheaper and easier on the car. More importantly, it lets the driver step over the limit repeatedly without any danger. Which is the only way to learn where that limit is and what to do when it approaches. Personally, I got into autocrossing many years ago because I've spun my mid-engined car on the street a couple of times and scared myself enough to contemplate the possible future.
Also, what Al describes is absolutely great. Provided you can find a snow-covered parking lot somewhere and local law or the lot's owners don't hassle you. This is the most concentrated and fastest way to learn. You'll need a season of autocross to duplicate an hour of seat time in those conditions.
12-16-2012, 04:00 PM
#18
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Ed, what I'm saying is that it's better to spin repeatedly than not to spin. I'm quite serious about it. When you spin you understand that you stepped over the limit. If you don't spin, you can not be absolutely sure that you've reached and exceeded the limit. And autocross allows you to spin more often without consequences. More importantly, autocross allows you to overcorrect in a number of ways and see that it would lead to spinning the other way instead of straightening the car.
What I'm saying is that AX is cheaper and more concentrated experience in that respect. Also easier to just come and run on a given weekend, unlike the DE events around here that need to be scheduled, registered for, need car prep (at least track pre-inspection around here) and usually run on weekdays.
Of course _any_ motorsport experience is great and will likely save your car and your *** on the street sooner or later. So whatever it is that of interest to OP - do it as soon as possible. Go there with an open mind, You are not racing. You are learning.
PS. In my (very limited) track experience I've found that track is much more of a steady state exercise. Autocross is more of a violent ever-changing experience. Thus it's a closer approximation of those sudden "Oh, Sh**!" moments on the street. My track instructors generally commented on how good my car control is because of autocross. Given that the rest of my track driving was absolute crap
What I'm saying is that AX is cheaper and more concentrated experience in that respect. Also easier to just come and run on a given weekend, unlike the DE events around here that need to be scheduled, registered for, need car prep (at least track pre-inspection around here) and usually run on weekdays.
Of course _any_ motorsport experience is great and will likely save your car and your *** on the street sooner or later. So whatever it is that of interest to OP - do it as soon as possible. Go there with an open mind, You are not racing. You are learning.
PS. In my (very limited) track experience I've found that track is much more of a steady state exercise. Autocross is more of a violent ever-changing experience. Thus it's a closer approximation of those sudden "Oh, Sh**!" moments on the street. My track instructors generally commented on how good my car control is because of autocross. Given that the rest of my track driving was absolute crap
12-16-2012, 05:16 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
my round and round and round...about experience. Can't imagine what the car would be like with the proper winter rubber on it thouugh.
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...-a-1080-a.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...-a-1080-a.html
12-16-2012, 05:39 PM
#20
Ed, what I'm saying is that it's better to spin repeatedly than not to spin. I'm quite serious about it. When you spin you understand that you stepped over the limit. If you don't spin, you can not be absolutely sure that you've reached and exceeded the limit. And autocross allows you to spin more often without consequences. More importantly, autocross allows you to overcorrect in a number of ways and see that it would lead to spinning the other way instead of straightening the car.
I did 100's of laps karting (maybe more than 1,000) this year and although I had fun and improved quite a bit in those venues, I was still surprised at how easy it was to find/exceed the limits in the 993. That in three cases at 100% effort/concentration I wasn't able to correct the spins. The conditions were challenging throughout the day, and the last two spins were during practice runs at the end of the day during a downpour. I did have two or three other sideways situations where I was able to correct and continue, as well.
I have a few hours of driving my car in the snow (on snow tires) in parking lots and the like, and although it was enlightening and way fun I still think an autocross or two is much better training for dealing with oh-sh**! scenarios. Everything seems to slow down in the snow, which of course does make for a great time.
I plan to do the whole series of local autocross next year and a skills day or two as well. I have a great interest in hitting the track too, Ridge in Shelton is calling my name,, but I'll be doing at least a full year of autocross/skills before I try that. And honestly, I don't know if I'm up for any real track time in a stock (no harness/hans/cage/fire suppression) car.
12-16-2012, 06:38 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
There is no doubt AX is a geat tool, and I also know a lot of folks who AX'd first, and then went to DE. Their experience certainly showed. I can assure you that in the upper run groups, our track time was anything but routine, and I loved the 20-25 minute run sessions-I found I could concentrate on different turns, and hitting them repetitively helped me with my line and car control. Also, various tracks provide different experiences. MSR's 1.7 mile layout is pretty technical-lot a lot of straight lines. TMS was a different animal, and then there was the banking.
I only mentioned my fist spin, which was at about 75mph coming out of Boomerang at MSR. A year late, I could hit a 4 wheel drift coming out of that turn at speed. Not exactly steady state.
I certainly have had a few more spins after the first, and in my mind, they approximate more of what I may expect to see on the street, if I got in trouble. And, you're right-each teaches more.
In DFW, it was a lot easier to get to the tracks than it was to the AX location, for me. So, that is why I went down that slope. If I would've started in San Diego, it would've been the other way around. The monthly or bi-weekly AX's are a lot more convenient in San Diego, than the closest track. So, geography may play a part too.
I'm certainly no Patrick Long, (I did have him as an instructor a couple of our private schools!), but my experience worked for me.
Again, performance driving schools of any type are a benefit.
I only mentioned my fist spin, which was at about 75mph coming out of Boomerang at MSR. A year late, I could hit a 4 wheel drift coming out of that turn at speed. Not exactly steady state.
I certainly have had a few more spins after the first, and in my mind, they approximate more of what I may expect to see on the street, if I got in trouble. And, you're right-each teaches more. In DFW, it was a lot easier to get to the tracks than it was to the AX location, for me. So, that is why I went down that slope. If I would've started in San Diego, it would've been the other way around. The monthly or bi-weekly AX's are a lot more convenient in San Diego, than the closest track. So, geography may play a part too.
I'm certainly no Patrick Long, (I did have him as an instructor a couple of our private schools!), but my experience worked for me.
Again, performance driving schools of any type are a benefit.
Ed, what I'm saying is that it's better to spin repeatedly than not to spin. I'm quite serious about it. When you spin you understand that you stepped over the limit. If you don't spin, you can not be absolutely sure that you've reached and exceeded the limit. And autocross allows you to spin more often without consequences. More importantly, autocross allows you to overcorrect in a number of ways and see that it would lead to spinning the other way instead of straightening the car.
What I'm saying is that AX is cheaper and more concentrated experience in that respect. Also easier to just come and run on a given weekend, unlike the DE events around here that need to be scheduled, registered for, need car prep (at least track pre-inspection around here) and usually run on weekdays.
Of course _any_ motorsport experience is great and will likely save your car and your *** on the street sooner or later. So whatever it is that of interest to OP - do it as soon as possible. Go there with an open mind, You are not racing. You are learning.
PS. In my (very limited) track experience I've found that track is much more of a steady state exercise. Autocross is more of a violent ever-changing experience. Thus it's a closer approximation of those sudden "Oh, Sh**!" moments on the street. My track instructors generally commented on how good my car control is because of autocross. Given that the rest of my track driving was absolute crap
What I'm saying is that AX is cheaper and more concentrated experience in that respect. Also easier to just come and run on a given weekend, unlike the DE events around here that need to be scheduled, registered for, need car prep (at least track pre-inspection around here) and usually run on weekdays.
Of course _any_ motorsport experience is great and will likely save your car and your *** on the street sooner or later. So whatever it is that of interest to OP - do it as soon as possible. Go there with an open mind, You are not racing. You are learning.
PS. In my (very limited) track experience I've found that track is much more of a steady state exercise. Autocross is more of a violent ever-changing experience. Thus it's a closer approximation of those sudden "Oh, Sh**!" moments on the street. My track instructors generally commented on how good my car control is because of autocross. Given that the rest of my track driving was absolute crap
12-16-2012, 06:39 PM
#22
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Mongrelcat, get together with Mike.S (the other Mike.S ). He autocrosses in Seattle and I'm sure will have a lot of input that you'll find useful.
BTW, one more thing. I try to go out in the first snow of the year to the nearest parking lot and do 5-10 minutes of just throwing the car sideways both under power and braking. Just to remind myself how scary and unpredictable this stuff is. And also to get used to the stepping out of the tail and not panicking if it happens. It's waaaay too intuitive to lift or hit brakes when it happens.
This is my 27th winter driving in front-engined, mid-engined and rear-engined cars, almost exclusively RWD. 12 winters in Rochester, NY (snowiest city in US, statistically) and 13 in Boston. Luckily, the last winter and this upcoming one will be in Miami. But still. Oh, and I do drive like grandma on the street for the past 13 years. Ever since I've started autocrossing. too damn scary and unpredictable for my taste.
). He autocrosses in Seattle and I'm sure will have a lot of input that you'll find useful. BTW, one more thing. I try to go out in the first snow of the year to the nearest parking lot and do 5-10 minutes of just throwing the car sideways both under power and braking. Just to remind myself how scary and unpredictable this stuff is. And also to get used to the stepping out of the tail and not panicking if it happens. It's waaaay too intuitive to lift or hit brakes when it happens.
This is my 27th winter driving in front-engined, mid-engined and rear-engined cars, almost exclusively RWD. 12 winters in Rochester, NY (snowiest city in US, statistically) and 13 in Boston. Luckily, the last winter and this upcoming one will be in Miami. But still. Oh, and I do drive like grandma on the street for the past 13 years. Ever since I've started autocrossing. too damn scary and unpredictable for my taste.
12-16-2012, 06:51 PM
#23
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Join Date: Jan 1997
Location: ^^ Werk 1 pictured Yr '00 .. Vail, Colorado
Posts: 2,518
Received 72 Likes
on
59 Posts
When I was twelve my older brother took me down to an empty shopping center parking lot covered w/ about an inch of icy snow (They were closed on Sundays then).
Edit / Delete..
I was twelve and had already been caught once driving his E-type around the neighborhood. Guess he figured if I was going to sneak and drive he wanted me to know how.
Edit / Delete..
I was twelve and had already been caught once driving his E-type around the neighborhood. Guess he figured if I was going to sneak and drive he wanted me to know how.
Had a similair older brother experience substitute the Jag E type for a Triump TR250. Too funny..
12-16-2012, 06:58 PM
#24
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Ed, the greatest advantage I see in track is just what you've mentioned. Seat time. Not only that, it's seat time 20+ minutes at a time where you can actually work on things repetitively and correct mistakes. Unfortunately it takes me half a season of autocrossing to get one hour of seat time - something you track junkies easily get in a day
But, hey, this is an interesting discussion on its own. To me a 4-wheel drift coming out of a corner is, indeed, steady state. I get into drifts in a 993 on street tires sometimes at autocross when a corner is way overcooked (you don't get to do this on 255 Hoosier-shed Miata). Control is fairly easy in this case because you just countersteer to a certain angle and hold the throttle. What I mean is that you know exactly what your suspension is doing. It's not hanging its state, there is no surprise. To me a non-steady state on track would be a chicane where the suspension loads and unloads and you have to react to it with your hands and right foot. Autocross, of course, is almost entirely just that. Think of driving a continuous set of chicanes for an entire lap
PS. We have a guy in local PCA who seriously tracks his RS America, maybe to the tune of 10-12 days a year at Watkins Glenn, VIR, Calaboogie, Lyme Rock, etc. He also autocrosses with us and he's been doing it longer than I have. So I was giving him a ride in my car (street setup, street tires) a couple of year ago through the course. I overcooced the corner and had to hold the car going sideways for a bit to get back on line. He was just hootin' and hollerin' on the passenger seat and told me how much fun this was after we got back. We started talking and realized that he doesn't get to experience that on a well set up track car with race tires. It was interesting to realize this for both of us.
PPS. Damn. It's 5 month before the next season starts
But, hey, this is an interesting discussion on its own. To me a 4-wheel drift coming out of a corner is, indeed, steady state. I get into drifts in a 993 on street tires sometimes at autocross when a corner is way overcooked (you don't get to do this on 255 Hoosier-shed Miata). Control is fairly easy in this case because you just countersteer to a certain angle and hold the throttle. What I mean is that you know exactly what your suspension is doing. It's not hanging its state, there is no surprise. To me a non-steady state on track would be a chicane where the suspension loads and unloads and you have to react to it with your hands and right foot. Autocross, of course, is almost entirely just that. Think of driving a continuous set of chicanes for an entire lap
PS. We have a guy in local PCA who seriously tracks his RS America, maybe to the tune of 10-12 days a year at Watkins Glenn, VIR, Calaboogie, Lyme Rock, etc. He also autocrosses with us and he's been doing it longer than I have. So I was giving him a ride in my car (street setup, street tires) a couple of year ago through the course. I overcooced the corner and had to hold the car going sideways for a bit to get back on line. He was just hootin' and hollerin' on the passenger seat and told me how much fun this was after we got back. We started talking and realized that he doesn't get to experience that on a well set up track car with race tires. It was interesting to realize this for both of us.
PPS. Damn. It's 5 month before the next season starts
12-16-2012, 09:19 PM
#26
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Which corner at NHMS? If it was 12 (where i got _really_ sideways after losing my brakes, it's pretty damn scary and catastrophic. That concrete wall... is the reason why I stopped going to the track.
12-16-2012, 09:29 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
If I'm on-limit in the Spec Miata (which is still ~1-1.5 sec. off the lap record), I basically feel like I'm going to go off on every corner of significance. I rarely drive any of the 911s that way, but the occasional corner will bring more slip angle than you expect/desire. Oops.
So understanding how the car/bike/tricycle will behave at the limits of traction is the skill you want to develop. Spinning, in and of itself, teaches you nothing.
So understanding how the car/bike/tricycle will behave at the limits of traction is the skill you want to develop. Spinning, in and of itself, teaches you nothing.
12-16-2012, 09:35 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
Syracuse would be the snowiest city...not Rochester. Prevailingly west wind, and an open Lake Ontario ensure that Syracuse and the Tug Hill Plateau get lots, and lots of lake effect snow. The Golden Snowball trophy, for most snow in a year, has gone to Syracuse almost every year for the last couple of decades I believe.
12-16-2012, 10:12 PM
#29
Three Wheelin'
I lost it on 10. I was given a late pass signal by the tree house and had been following the car ahead for awhile. I downshifted to second before entering ten and forgot I had done that. When I came around ten I stayed way to the inside anticipating another pass signal. The driver ahead gave me the pass and I got on the throttle. Probably would have been OK if I had been in third but I wasn't. I started to slide, over corrected and then slid the other way, over correcting again. That's when I lost it completely. Ended up in the grass facing traffic. Happened quickly and didn't have time to get scared. I was nervous for the next two sessions. The incident did cause me to start thinking of getting new seats, bar and harnesses though.
12-16-2012, 11:20 PM
#30
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Syracuse would be the snowiest city...not Rochester. Prevailingly west wind, and an open Lake Ontario ensure that Syracuse and the Tug Hill Plateau get lots, and lots of lake effect snow. The Golden Snowball trophy, for most snow in a year, has gone to Syracuse almost every year for the last couple of decades I believe.
Mercedes Benz ran a commercial for a while calling Rochester the snowiest city in US. Although I know that east side of the lake gets dumped upon with some serious regularity. In short, i'm glad to be out of there