Sway Bar/Anti Roll Bar Summary
10-01-2012, 08:43 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
I have the TRG bars ( I think I actually helped JMR install his). Close, but clears. To get a good balance though you pretty much run full loose up front and full stiff in the rear. I may even add another softer setting in the front. I running very heavy spring setup. Bill, BTW I will get you the picts your requested when I get my car back. It's in for an alternate dyno map to run NASA and add some more sensor inputs on the Motec.
10-01-2012, 09:37 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Kika, I think for the street car the bar choice will heavily depend on the rest of your suspension and width of the tires.
I've tried several combos and happen to like the current M030 bars on the car for street and autocross. The issue with stuffing the largest possible bar in the back (like 22/21 Euro TT combo) is that you making an already understeering setup understeer even more. Unless, that is, you've worked that issue out with springs and tires.
I've tried several combos and happen to like the current M030 bars on the car for street and autocross. The issue with stuffing the largest possible bar in the back (like 22/21 Euro TT combo) is that you making an already understeering setup understeer even more. Unless, that is, you've worked that issue out with springs and tires.
I have RoW M030 sprungs, and Bilstein HD shocks. Also running 225/40 and 285/30 tires. Would you recommend M030 bars or the Euro TT? I do not track the car, so I want to retain some driving comfort. I am currently on the stock bars.
Gonzilla has PSS9s with euro TT bars, which is a nice set up.
10-01-2012, 09:54 PM
#19
Kika, I think for the street car the bar choice will heavily depend on the rest of your suspension and width of the tires.
I've tried several combos and happen to like the current M030 bars on the car for street and autocross. The issue with stuffing the largest possible bar in the back (like 22/21 Euro TT combo) is that you making an already understeering setup understeer even more. Unless, that is, you've worked that issue out with springs and tires.
I've tried several combos and happen to like the current M030 bars on the car for street and autocross. The issue with stuffing the largest possible bar in the back (like 22/21 Euro TT combo) is that you making an already understeering setup understeer even more. Unless, that is, you've worked that issue out with springs and tires.
http://www.nyracer.com/overunder.htm
10-01-2012, 10:11 PM
#20
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Sorry, brain fart on my part with sway bars (learns me to not think of my autocross Miata where rear bar was removed but for a slighly different reason). Yep, EuroTT for that spring and tire combo, Kika.
But I still would not run that much stagger between tires and would opt for 265/35 on the rear.
Kika, let's start from the beginning, though. What do you specifically dislike about the car's handling right now? In other words, let's see what you want to "fix" with the bars, so to speak.
But I still would not run that much stagger between tires and would opt for 265/35 on the rear.
Kika, let's start from the beginning, though. What do you specifically dislike about the car's handling right now? In other words, let's see what you want to "fix" with the bars, so to speak.
10-01-2012, 10:54 PM
#21
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Sorry, brain fart on my part with sway bars (learns me to not think of my autocross Miata where rear bar was removed but for a slighly different reason). Yep, EuroTT for that spring and tire combo, Kika.
But I still would not run that much stagger between tires and would opt for 265/35 on the rear.
Kika, let's start from the beginning, though. What do you specifically dislike about the car's handling right now? In other words, let's see what you want to "fix" with the bars, so to speak.
But I still would not run that much stagger between tires and would opt for 265/35 on the rear.
Kika, let's start from the beginning, though. What do you specifically dislike about the car's handling right now? In other words, let's see what you want to "fix" with the bars, so to speak.
I am not really unhappy with my handling actually. I drove Gonzilla's car last week and his car has less body roll and just feels more planted on the road.
I have some Wevo blacks that I need to install, which I should probably do first and see how much more I need/want to do.
03-10-2013, 12:02 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
Perhaps someone can chime on this one (Kika maybe?) Thought it followed this post the best.
I thought there was a difference between the stock C2 and the C4S (maybe also C2S) anti-sway bars. Is there or are they considered the same as TT?
I might have a set I could put on my car for cheap, so I was wondering if that's a reasonable thing to do. I'm currently about to put some PSS10's on as well as I have the box sitting in my garage. Was trying to hold myself back from sliding too far down that slippery slope just yet.
What do you think? Good move?
Marc G.
I thought there was a difference between the stock C2 and the C4S (maybe also C2S) anti-sway bars. Is there or are they considered the same as TT?
I might have a set I could put on my car for cheap, so I was wondering if that's a reasonable thing to do. I'm currently about to put some PSS10's on as well as I have the box sitting in my garage. Was trying to hold myself back from sliding too far down that slippery slope just yet.
What do you think? Good move?
Marc G.
03-10-2013, 12:23 PM
#23
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I have run the Euro TT bars for years now and love the setup! They truly transformed the car from one that pushed under load to a relatively neutral handling car. And, I do not find the ride objectionable at all. Of course, the PSS-9 setup may have something to do with that...
03-10-2013, 10:26 PM
#24
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Marc,
I am not positive on this, but since the C4S is essentially the TT suspension, I would think that the C4S bars are the same as the turbo bars and are 22/19 front rear, assuming it is a US car.
Good depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Bigger bars will certainly reduce body roll. Search on oversteer/ under steer, there is a very good website that details most, if not all the factors and how to adjust them, depending on where your car is now.
I also have the euro TT bars on my car, with HD/M030s and I really like the way my car handles.
I am not positive on this, but since the C4S is essentially the TT suspension, I would think that the C4S bars are the same as the turbo bars and are 22/19 front rear, assuming it is a US car.
Good depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Bigger bars will certainly reduce body roll. Search on oversteer/ under steer, there is a very good website that details most, if not all the factors and how to adjust them, depending on where your car is now.
I also have the euro TT bars on my car, with HD/M030s and I really like the way my car handles.
03-10-2013, 11:24 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
I have 10+ years ruining the street ride of my 993...I know how to do this!
However, you don't have to. If you want a street driver you don't need adjustable sways...first thing to address is your struts and shocks. Sways can't work any miracles without good struts and shocks. Secondly, If you do get adjustable sways (aka anti-sway bars), and drive exclusively on the street, you'll only adjust them once, hardly worth the expense and effort.
Here is a cheap, no brainer solution:
M030 Struts and Shocks
M030 Sways
Factory Drop Links
Want to step it up a bit?
M030 (RoW) Struts and Shocks
M030 (US) sways...that is really all you need for comfy street driving....or M030 (RoW) if you feel the need.
Factory Drop Links
If you want something a little more sporty, M030 (RoW) front at 22mm and 993 (RoW) turbo rear at 21mm. I ran this set up on the street and track...it was a good combination. Pete (RIP) Wetzel from ANDIAL sold me this set up. The struts and shocks were off a 993 Turbo that was transitioning to something more radical. He also told me to install the 21mm Euro Turbo bar..it has enough meat to drill an additional hole for drop link mounting. I used the 993 Turbo front springs (M030 RoW), but had to buy rear NA springs as the Turbo springs are too short.
First big push back from some! Monroe struts and shocks don't last...that isn't necessarily true. Let say they last 40,000 miles and you drive 5,000 mike a year...that's 8 years according to my calculator!
Now what happens when you go to big sway bars? The street ride is sacrificed, I know nobody wants to hear this but it is true. You don't need big "anti-sway" bars on a street rig. When I had 25mm TRG front anti-sway bar...I had to run it in the full soft position, always, or risk raising an inside front wheel on a tight track corner...cars are faster when they run on 4 wheels in contrast to 3. The TRG bars use mounting couplers with Allen screws holding them in place. If they ever come loose and they slide side to side, you'll be snapping drop links...it happened to me 2X. I went to 993 RS bars, 23mm front, 22mm rear with Tarrett Engineering drop links, car lowered to RS ride height and the car handles like a dream....present have PSS 9s....not enough spring with these as a track suspension...too bloody soft.
IMHO, the "cruiser" suspension for me, were I to have a street only 993, PSS10 and some iteration of the factory M030 anti-sway bars.
However, you don't have to. If you want a street driver you don't need adjustable sways...first thing to address is your struts and shocks. Sways can't work any miracles without good struts and shocks. Secondly, If you do get adjustable sways (aka anti-sway bars), and drive exclusively on the street, you'll only adjust them once, hardly worth the expense and effort.
Here is a cheap, no brainer solution:
M030 Struts and Shocks
M030 Sways
Factory Drop Links
Want to step it up a bit?
M030 (RoW) Struts and Shocks
M030 (US) sways...that is really all you need for comfy street driving....or M030 (RoW) if you feel the need.
Factory Drop Links
If you want something a little more sporty, M030 (RoW) front at 22mm and 993 (RoW) turbo rear at 21mm. I ran this set up on the street and track...it was a good combination. Pete (RIP) Wetzel from ANDIAL sold me this set up. The struts and shocks were off a 993 Turbo that was transitioning to something more radical. He also told me to install the 21mm Euro Turbo bar..it has enough meat to drill an additional hole for drop link mounting. I used the 993 Turbo front springs (M030 RoW), but had to buy rear NA springs as the Turbo springs are too short.
First big push back from some! Monroe struts and shocks don't last...that isn't necessarily true. Let say they last 40,000 miles and you drive 5,000 mike a year...that's 8 years according to my calculator!
Now what happens when you go to big sway bars? The street ride is sacrificed, I know nobody wants to hear this but it is true. You don't need big "anti-sway" bars on a street rig. When I had 25mm TRG front anti-sway bar...I had to run it in the full soft position, always, or risk raising an inside front wheel on a tight track corner...cars are faster when they run on 4 wheels in contrast to 3. The TRG bars use mounting couplers with Allen screws holding them in place. If they ever come loose and they slide side to side, you'll be snapping drop links...it happened to me 2X. I went to 993 RS bars, 23mm front, 22mm rear with Tarrett Engineering drop links, car lowered to RS ride height and the car handles like a dream....present have PSS 9s....not enough spring with these as a track suspension...too bloody soft.
IMHO, the "cruiser" suspension for me, were I to have a street only 993, PSS10 and some iteration of the factory M030 anti-sway bars.
03-11-2013, 02:20 AM
#26
Rennlist Member
Martin,
I appreciate all your suggestions, but like I said in the thread, I already purchased PSS10's which are to go on my car. That being said, I have someone who has a set of C4S bars, which I was going to replace my C2 stock bars with. According to Kika, the C4S uses the same bars as the TT. If that's the case, then they should be 22's in fronts and 19's in rear. That's not excessively big for street and occasional Auto-X now, is it?
I don't really want to step it up really any more than that at this time. The whole point was that, being I am installing PSS10's, I might as well stiffen up a little with bigger sway bars and a friend is going to give his old C4S ones to me. So that should be a modest upgrade, no?
I appreciate all your suggestions, but like I said in the thread, I already purchased PSS10's which are to go on my car. That being said, I have someone who has a set of C4S bars, which I was going to replace my C2 stock bars with. According to Kika, the C4S uses the same bars as the TT. If that's the case, then they should be 22's in fronts and 19's in rear. That's not excessively big for street and occasional Auto-X now, is it?
I don't really want to step it up really any more than that at this time. The whole point was that, being I am installing PSS10's, I might as well stiffen up a little with bigger sway bars and a friend is going to give his old C4S ones to me. So that should be a modest upgrade, no?
I have 10+ years ruining the street ride of my 993...I know how to do this!
However, you don't have to. If you want a street driver you don't need adjustable sways...first thing to address is your struts and shocks. Sways can't work any miracles without good struts and shocks. Secondly, If you do get adjustable sways (aka anti-sway bars), and drive exclusively on the street, you'll only adjust them once, hardly worth the expense and effort.
Here is a cheap, no brainer solution:
M030 Struts and Shocks
M030 Sways
Factory Drop Links
Want to step it up a bit?
M030 (RoW) Struts and Shocks
M030 (US) sways...that is really all you need for comfy street driving....or M030 (RoW) if you feel the need.
Factory Drop Links
If you want something a little more sporty, M030 (RoW) front at 22mm and 993 (RoW) turbo rear at 21mm. I ran this set up on the street and track...it was a good combination. Pete (RIP) Wetzel from ANDIAL sold me this set up. The struts and shocks were off a 993 Turbo that was transitioning to something more radical. He also told me to install the 21mm Euro Turbo bar..it has enough meat to drill an additional hole for drop link mounting. I used the 993 Turbo front springs (M030 RoW), but had to buy rear NA springs as the Turbo springs are too short.
First big push back from some! Monroe struts and shocks don't last...that isn't necessarily true. Let say they last 40,000 miles and you drive 5,000 mike a year...that's 8 years according to my calculator!
Now what happens when you go to big sway bars? The street ride is sacrificed, I know nobody wants to hear this but it is true. You don't need big "anti-sway" bars on a street rig. When I had 25mm TRG front anti-sway bar...I had to run it in the full soft position, always, or risk raising an inside front wheel on a tight track corner...cars are faster when they run on 4 wheels in contrast to 3. The TRG bars use mounting couplers with Allen screws holding them in place. If they ever come loose and they slide side to side, you'll be snapping drop links...it happened to me 2X. I went to 993 RS bars, 23mm front, 22mm rear with Tarrett Engineering drop links, car lowered to RS ride height and the car handles like a dream....present have PSS 9s....not enough spring with these as a track suspension...too bloody soft.
IMHO, the "cruiser" suspension for me, were I to have a street only 993, PSS10 and some iteration of the factory M030 anti-sway bars.
However, you don't have to. If you want a street driver you don't need adjustable sways...first thing to address is your struts and shocks. Sways can't work any miracles without good struts and shocks. Secondly, If you do get adjustable sways (aka anti-sway bars), and drive exclusively on the street, you'll only adjust them once, hardly worth the expense and effort.
Here is a cheap, no brainer solution:
M030 Struts and Shocks
M030 Sways
Factory Drop Links
Want to step it up a bit?
M030 (RoW) Struts and Shocks
M030 (US) sways...that is really all you need for comfy street driving....or M030 (RoW) if you feel the need.
Factory Drop Links
If you want something a little more sporty, M030 (RoW) front at 22mm and 993 (RoW) turbo rear at 21mm. I ran this set up on the street and track...it was a good combination. Pete (RIP) Wetzel from ANDIAL sold me this set up. The struts and shocks were off a 993 Turbo that was transitioning to something more radical. He also told me to install the 21mm Euro Turbo bar..it has enough meat to drill an additional hole for drop link mounting. I used the 993 Turbo front springs (M030 RoW), but had to buy rear NA springs as the Turbo springs are too short.
First big push back from some! Monroe struts and shocks don't last...that isn't necessarily true. Let say they last 40,000 miles and you drive 5,000 mike a year...that's 8 years according to my calculator!
Now what happens when you go to big sway bars? The street ride is sacrificed, I know nobody wants to hear this but it is true. You don't need big "anti-sway" bars on a street rig. When I had 25mm TRG front anti-sway bar...I had to run it in the full soft position, always, or risk raising an inside front wheel on a tight track corner...cars are faster when they run on 4 wheels in contrast to 3. The TRG bars use mounting couplers with Allen screws holding them in place. If they ever come loose and they slide side to side, you'll be snapping drop links...it happened to me 2X. I went to 993 RS bars, 23mm front, 22mm rear with Tarrett Engineering drop links, car lowered to RS ride height and the car handles like a dream....present have PSS 9s....not enough spring with these as a track suspension...too bloody soft.
IMHO, the "cruiser" suspension for me, were I to have a street only 993, PSS10 and some iteration of the factory M030 anti-sway bars.
03-11-2013, 10:12 AM
#27
Rennlist Member
The plan you have outlined below is a good one. Make it happen!
Martin,
I appreciate all your suggestions, but like I said in the thread, I already purchased PSS10's which are to go on my car. That being said, I have someone who has a set of C4S bars, which I was going to replace my C2 stock bars with. According to Kika, the C4S uses the same bars as the TT. If that's the case, then they should be 22's in fronts and 19's in rear. That's not excessively big for street and occasional Auto-X now, is it?
I don't really want to step it up really any more than that at this time. The whole point was that, being I am installing PSS10's, I might as well stiffen up a little with bigger sway bars and a friend is going to give his old C4S ones to me. So that should be a modest upgrade, no?
I appreciate all your suggestions, but like I said in the thread, I already purchased PSS10's which are to go on my car. That being said, I have someone who has a set of C4S bars, which I was going to replace my C2 stock bars with. According to Kika, the C4S uses the same bars as the TT. If that's the case, then they should be 22's in fronts and 19's in rear. That's not excessively big for street and occasional Auto-X now, is it?
I don't really want to step it up really any more than that at this time. The whole point was that, being I am installing PSS10's, I might as well stiffen up a little with bigger sway bars and a friend is going to give his old C4S ones to me. So that should be a modest upgrade, no?
03-11-2013, 02:07 PM
#29
Race Director
I have someone who has a set of C4S bars, which I was going to replace my C2 stock bars with. According to Kika, the C4S uses the same bars as the TT. If that's the case, then they should be 22's in fronts and 19's in rear. That's not excessively big for street and occasional Auto-X now, is it?
I'd also put in a plug for a strut bar up front. I liked the effect on steering feel.
Edit: one more thing: ALIGNMENT. All of the $$$$ you spend on parts will not deliver fun without a top notch alignment.
Last edited by Dr. No; 03-11-2013 at 02:09 PM. Reason: add point
10-16-2013, 05:36 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
My brother just bought a 95 C2 so bringing this thread back.. Can one upgrade ARBs on stock suspension to reduce roll first? Thought I read somewhere that you won't lose alignment settings replacing ARBs..