Question for Steve Wiener regarding ethanol
05-02-2012, 01:49 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Don't assume high octane gas contains less/no ethanol. Ethanol actual helps raise the octane rating so it's a cheap way to get higher octane and is frequently used in premium gas blends. There is a common misconception that high octane is better or cleaner gasoline. The octane rating is just a measure of the resistance to detonation, the higher the resistance the less pinging and the more the engine management/boost you can use to get more power. Absent the engine capability and systems to take advantage of the "excess" octane you get no real benefit from higher octane. Ideally you should use the lowest octane possible that your engine systems can take full advantage of, anything more is wasted. If I extrapolate from Steve's numbers then I'd guess any octane over 97 or so is wasted on our NA cars, except perhaps on a very hot day at the track (Steve feel free to correct me if my estimate is wrong).
Besides octane one reason premium gas can still be beneficial is that the refiners often add additional, good additives to premium grades that they don't (or use less of) in lower grades. In so much as those are useful in making your car run cleaner and better it can be beneficial but it won't produce more power. Be sure the premium fuel you're using actually has more good additives than the lower grades or else you're just wasting your money.
Besides octane one reason premium gas can still be beneficial is that the refiners often add additional, good additives to premium grades that they don't (or use less of) in lower grades. In so much as those are useful in making your car run cleaner and better it can be beneficial but it won't produce more power. Be sure the premium fuel you're using actually has more good additives than the lower grades or else you're just wasting your money.
05-02-2012, 02:04 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
I just love living in California. 91 octane is the highest we can find (except for special locations selling race gas, but not near me or available for daily consumption), we pay a frickin' premium vs the rest of the country, and we're always getting the "latest and greatest" formulated crap that we have no choice but to buy (MTBE- I think that' what it was called; now we have ethanol to keep the corn growers happy) 
05-02-2012, 02:44 PM
#18
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Thread Starter
Great stuff guys, thanks for all the replies
Bob that's cool. Thanks. The nearest to me is actually 75 miles away int the sprawling metropolis of Idaho Falls (these things are relative in Wyoming 
)
I'll check into it.
Thanks Steve. Very helpful as always. I've been using Stabil over the winter storage, will now use it regularly, especially if ethanol levels go over 10%.
also gonna check out availablity near here of ltc's tip about the VP fuels MS93 no eth race gas.
Go here and zoom in on the map. I think there are three location in Wyoming...not sure which products but most likely 260 GT (100 Octane). Works great at 6000 ft in the summer.
http://www.racegas.com/fuelfinder
http://www.racegas.com/fuelfinder
)I'll check into it.
Hi Mike,
Ethanol at 15% isn't good for our cars: 10% is about the limit before serious degradation of all the elastomers in the fuel delivery system occurs.
I'm just as concerned about this as you are since I live in a "green" state where such environmental measures are deemed good for everyone.
The only things one can do besides seeking fuels without ethanol is the regular use of Marine Stabil fuel treatment and keeping the tank full to prevent condensation from forming. Unleaded race gas is sold in various formulations, some of which contain little or no oxygenates.
Hope this helps,
Ethanol at 15% isn't good for our cars: 10% is about the limit before serious degradation of all the elastomers in the fuel delivery system occurs.
I'm just as concerned about this as you are since I live in a "green" state where such environmental measures are deemed good for everyone.
The only things one can do besides seeking fuels without ethanol is the regular use of Marine Stabil fuel treatment and keeping the tank full to prevent condensation from forming. Unleaded race gas is sold in various formulations, some of which contain little or no oxygenates.
Hope this helps,
also gonna check out availablity near here of ltc's tip about the VP fuels MS93 no eth race gas.
05-03-2012, 05:16 AM
#19
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Hi Mike,
Ethanol at 15% isn't good for our cars: 10% is about the limit before serious degradation of all the elastomers in the fuel delivery system occurs.
I'm just as concerned about this as you are since I live in a "green" state where such environmental measures are deemed good for everyone.
The only things one can do besides seeking fuels without ethanol is the regular use of Marine Stabil fuel treatment and keeping the tank full to prevent condensation from forming. Unleaded race gas is sold in various formulations, some of which contain little or no oxygenates.
Hope this helps,
Ethanol at 15% isn't good for our cars: 10% is about the limit before serious degradation of all the elastomers in the fuel delivery system occurs.
I'm just as concerned about this as you are since I live in a "green" state where such environmental measures are deemed good for everyone.
The only things one can do besides seeking fuels without ethanol is the regular use of Marine Stabil fuel treatment and keeping the tank full to prevent condensation from forming. Unleaded race gas is sold in various formulations, some of which contain little or no oxygenates.
Hope this helps,
also gonna check out availablity near here of ltc's tip about the VP fuels MS93 no eth race gas.
Also, you might want to check if your local 89 has less Ethanol (this can often be the case).
If it does, you can fill with that and add octane booster to make it 93.
05-03-2012, 09:27 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
As for what fuels contain what, instead of guessing, its best to get that in writing from the fuel company. Shell V-Power up here does not contain any ethanol according to an e-mail received from an engineer at Shell.
05-03-2012, 01:03 PM
#22
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I think it would take a lot of booster to bump it up to 93. IIRC, when the bottles say "points" they mean 1 point = .1 octane. So to boost 89 to 93 would actually take several treatments depending on the additive; which would get expensive quickly, and I am sure wouldn't actually work out too well in practice compared to a pump-race blend.
05-03-2012, 01:16 PM
#23
RL Technical Advisor
As for what fuels contain what, instead of guessing, its best to get that in writing from the fuel company. Shell V-Power up here does not contain any ethanol according to an e-mail received from an engineer at Shell.
05-03-2012, 02:09 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
According to Porsche, the water-cooled models from the late 90s? are not affected.
Not that it is a pressing issue in my case...yet, but there is no reason why Porsche cannot offer a retrofit package to solve the issue, if there even is one.
05-03-2012, 03:09 PM
#25
Race Director
I think it would take a lot of booster to bump it up to 93. IIRC, when the bottles say "points" they mean 1 point = .1 octane. So to boost 89 to 93 would actually take several treatments depending on the additive; which would get expensive quickly, and I am sure wouldn't actually work out too well in practice compared to a pump-race blend.
05-03-2012, 03:52 PM
#26
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Not bad...would take about a quart of Torco for a full 4 octane bump. At $20ish a bottle, it's nearly a wash there for additive vs. blending $9-10 race gas, but at least you can easily carry around additives. 5 gallons of gas would be more problematic.
A more feasible option than I originally thought!
