Thinking of selling my Riviera Blue 993 C2S....
08-16-2012, 10:16 AM
#511
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Folks,
I have reopened this thread and moved it back to this forum for a good reason.
Those who followed this thread will know that the auction closed with a winning bid of over $120,000. This was the culmination of furious bidding, each one driving the price higher
The winner bid 38 times, each time higher. As you might expect when the auction ended, the winner was nowhere to be found. Worse, the series of false bids made by at least one Member of this forum (I suspect there were others) drove away legit buyers, ensuring the predictions that the auction would fail would come true.
Given the strong sense of community which has always prevailed in this forum, I find it hard to believe that anyone would stoop so low. In case there are any doubts, this kind of mean spirited behavior is unacceptable.
I've discussed this with John D. - he takes a particular interest in this forum as you know. His reaction parallels mine.
The end result is that a Member has suffered harm.
I suggest that those involved consider their actions and reflect on how they failed to represent the essence and heart of this community. Frankly I am deeply disappointed.
I have reopened this thread and moved it back to this forum for a good reason.
Those who followed this thread will know that the auction closed with a winning bid of over $120,000. This was the culmination of furious bidding, each one driving the price higher
The winner bid 38 times, each time higher. As you might expect when the auction ended, the winner was nowhere to be found. Worse, the series of false bids made by at least one Member of this forum (I suspect there were others) drove away legit buyers, ensuring the predictions that the auction would fail would come true.
Given the strong sense of community which has always prevailed in this forum, I find it hard to believe that anyone would stoop so low. In case there are any doubts, this kind of mean spirited behavior is unacceptable.
I've discussed this with John D. - he takes a particular interest in this forum as you know. His reaction parallels mine.
The end result is that a Member has suffered harm.
I suggest that those involved consider their actions and reflect on how they failed to represent the essence and heart of this community. Frankly I am deeply disappointed.
08-16-2012, 11:01 AM
#512
Disappointing, but not surprising given the cast of characters involved in this deal and the venue. This deal, from the start, was shadier than the real estate under a 300-year old oak tree.
The 993 board here on Rennlist is a great forum, and money is not the overriding factor. eBay, on the other hand, is not so great, and eBay has money at the center of it's function. Alas, any time this modern society of ours and money come together, you're likely to see the worst in human nature come out.
I would say this particular deal reflects less on the essence and heart of the Rennlist community as a whole and more on the actions of a few shady members that played on the flaws of eBay.
There's another Riv Blu 993 for sale on eBay listed by another polarizing RL member, this time a convertible. So far, the bidding looks "spirited". It'll be interesting to see if the outcome is similar to this C2S episode....
The 993 board here on Rennlist is a great forum, and money is not the overriding factor. eBay, on the other hand, is not so great, and eBay has money at the center of it's function. Alas, any time this modern society of ours and money come together, you're likely to see the worst in human nature come out.
I would say this particular deal reflects less on the essence and heart of the Rennlist community as a whole and more on the actions of a few shady members that played on the flaws of eBay.
There's another Riv Blu 993 for sale on eBay listed by another polarizing RL member, this time a convertible. So far, the bidding looks "spirited". It'll be interesting to see if the outcome is similar to this C2S episode....
08-16-2012, 11:09 AM
#513
Rennlist Member
Wasn't me!
Seriously though, as Goof says the Ebay model is flawed. Allowing a potential bidder with only 3 positive f/b to place bids on this sale was a mistake. This person's account should have been blocked once the pattern emerged, and the seller is well within his rights to stipulate certain conditions. If a rogue bid is placed he can delete it.
Seriously though, as Goof says the Ebay model is flawed. Allowing a potential bidder with only 3 positive f/b to place bids on this sale was a mistake. This person's account should have been blocked once the pattern emerged, and the seller is well within his rights to stipulate certain conditions. If a rogue bid is placed he can delete it.
08-16-2012, 11:10 AM
#514
Goofball, the issue isn't with Chris (GYMGUY), he wasn't the problem. He wasn't BANNED, but No HTwo O was!
So, time to stop for a moment before we continue down this path again.
I can provide the details, facts. This thread and forum need some facts.
PS> I'm Polarizing? Thankyou...I think.
So, time to stop for a moment before we continue down this path again.
I can provide the details, facts. This thread and forum need some facts.
PS> I'm Polarizing? Thankyou...I think.
08-16-2012, 11:11 AM
#515
Quoting Bod, "the winner bid 38 times, each time higher. As you might expect when the auction ended, the winner was nowhere to be found. Worse, the series of false bids made by at least one Member of this forum (I suspect there were others) drove away legit buyers, ensuring the predictions that the auction would fail would come true."
Looking at the bid history, there is indeed at least one that submitted multiple bids. That said, I am not sure how it can be interpreted as having come from a member of this board. If there is irrefutable proof that a member of this forum engineered false bids, I say this person should be banned from Rennlist.
What say the rest of you?
Looking at the bid history, there is indeed at least one that submitted multiple bids. That said, I am not sure how it can be interpreted as having come from a member of this board. If there is irrefutable proof that a member of this forum engineered false bids, I say this person should be banned from Rennlist.
What say the rest of you?
08-16-2012, 11:21 AM
#516
Goofball, the issue isn't with Chris (GYMGUY), he wasn't the problem. He wasn't BANNED, but No HTwo O was!
So, time to stop for a moment before we continue down this path again.
I can provide the details, facts. This thread and forum need some facts.
PS> I'm Polarizing? Thankyou...I think.
So, time to stop for a moment before we continue down this path again.
I can provide the details, facts. This thread and forum need some facts.
PS> I'm Polarizing? Thankyou...I think.
Tony, I didn't mention GYM GUY by name, but if we're talking facts, the simple and undeniable fact was that he was less than forthcoming and transparent on this car and this deal.
That fact was the foundation on which a shady and fraudulent house of eBay cards was built.
And yes, Tony, you're an asset to the board, but you know as well as I you can be an acquired taste
08-16-2012, 11:21 AM
#517
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Quoting Bod, "the winner bid 38 times, each time higher. As you might expect when the auction ended, the winner was nowhere to be found. Worse, the series of false bids made by at least one Member of this forum (I suspect there were others) drove away legit buyers, ensuring the predictions that the auction would fail would come true."
Looking at the bid history, there is indeed at least one that submitted multiple bids. That said, I am not sure how it can be interpreted as having come from a member of this board. If there is irrefutable proof that a member of this forum engineered false bids, I say this person should be banned from Rennlist.
What say the rest of you?
Looking at the bid history, there is indeed at least one that submitted multiple bids. That said, I am not sure how it can be interpreted as having come from a member of this board. If there is irrefutable proof that a member of this forum engineered false bids, I say this person should be banned from Rennlist.
What say the rest of you?
As to those who claim the sale was "shady" I saw nothing in the thread which was a deliberate misrepresentation. The seller admitted his mistake, it was a one owner car when he bought it. Further, the documentation he provided clearly showed the history in a lot of detail. In spite of the mean spirited posts, the seller remained polite at all times which is more than I can say for some.
08-16-2012, 11:21 AM
#518
Rennlist Member
This is terrible. I, for one, was cheering on as the high bid kept creeping up higher and higher. I am disappointed that there was a rogue bidder playing games, but with the way bay is set-up it is hard to determine this. I thought I read that the seller was in constant contact with all bidders. Perhaps he can shed some light on this.
08-16-2012, 11:27 AM
#519
First, thank you to Bob and 911Slow for being so responsive and helpful in this situation.
Chris (GymGuy) sells his 98 C2S on EBay. The rarity of color, mileage, year and model setup this car to have a positive showing and response from potential buyers on EBay.
Chris posts the EBay link here in Rennlist in this thread. He is immediately questioned about the accuracy of his ad. (How many owners, is it 1 of 1 verified or not) from members here.
Then the thread "escalates" to the next level. The words and tones become much more aggressive. Other members start piling on, moving from questioning to words that are slanderish in nature.
No HTwo O (Bill) was a major instigator in this towards Chris. Calling him a liar at one point and predicting the auction would fall apart with the winning bidder know where to be found.
Well, guess what. Bill, was the bidder (starting around $85-86k) and eventual winner at $120,300.
Chris didn't know the EBay ID was our Bill (No HTwo O), and didn't expect anything out of the ordinary since he has several bidders from Germany, US. He even had someone fly-in to see the car in person.
The auction ends at $120,300 and Chris contacts the winner, since EBay sends that information to Chris.
By EBay rules of that auction, the winner has 7 days to pay the funds. Chris sends multiple emails to Bill, with no response. Still not realizing its (No HTwo O). Chris contacts me.
You know the ex-police officer, still has some skills. I do some checking and realize the EBay winner is our one and only No HTwo O.
So, while this thread and members of it, are bashing Chris for the accuracy of the ad, his ethics, and what constitutes being a "liar" or not, Bill is sabotaging his Ebay auction.
Chris had genuine other buyers interested in this car, flying out to see it, and Bill is sabotaging the auction. Chris had buyers from around the world with their own expert advisors (not Rennlisters)
assisting with all the facts they need to make their own decisions.
Bob and 911Slow got involved to review the facts, and BANNED No HTwo O for his actions.
Chris (GymGuy) sells his 98 C2S on EBay. The rarity of color, mileage, year and model setup this car to have a positive showing and response from potential buyers on EBay.
Chris posts the EBay link here in Rennlist in this thread. He is immediately questioned about the accuracy of his ad. (How many owners, is it 1 of 1 verified or not) from members here.
Then the thread "escalates" to the next level. The words and tones become much more aggressive. Other members start piling on, moving from questioning to words that are slanderish in nature.
No HTwo O (Bill) was a major instigator in this towards Chris. Calling him a liar at one point and predicting the auction would fall apart with the winning bidder know where to be found.
Well, guess what. Bill, was the bidder (starting around $85-86k) and eventual winner at $120,300.
Chris didn't know the EBay ID was our Bill (No HTwo O), and didn't expect anything out of the ordinary since he has several bidders from Germany, US. He even had someone fly-in to see the car in person.
The auction ends at $120,300 and Chris contacts the winner, since EBay sends that information to Chris.
By EBay rules of that auction, the winner has 7 days to pay the funds. Chris sends multiple emails to Bill, with no response. Still not realizing its (No HTwo O). Chris contacts me.
You know the ex-police officer, still has some skills. I do some checking and realize the EBay winner is our one and only No HTwo O.
So, while this thread and members of it, are bashing Chris for the accuracy of the ad, his ethics, and what constitutes being a "liar" or not, Bill is sabotaging his Ebay auction.
Chris had genuine other buyers interested in this car, flying out to see it, and Bill is sabotaging the auction. Chris had buyers from around the world with their own expert advisors (not Rennlisters)
assisting with all the facts they need to make their own decisions.
Bob and 911Slow got involved to review the facts, and BANNED No HTwo O for his actions.
08-16-2012, 11:36 AM
#520
mdude, you are correct in all respects.
As to those who claim the sale was "shady" I saw nothing in the thread which was a deliberate misrepresentation. The seller admitted his mistake, it was a one owner car when he bought it. Further, the documentation he provided clearly showed the history in a lot of detail. In spite of the mean spirited posts, the seller remained polite at all times which is more than I can say for some.
As to those who claim the sale was "shady" I saw nothing in the thread which was a deliberate misrepresentation. The seller admitted his mistake, it was a one owner car when he bought it. Further, the documentation he provided clearly showed the history in a lot of detail. In spite of the mean spirited posts, the seller remained polite at all times which is more than I can say for some.
It sure looks like he deliberately lied about how many owners the car had. He knew it when he listed it, and when called on it, he failed to correct it immediately. That's shady.
Further, his excuse for misrepresenting the car was he said he made a typo. If you look at your keyboard, it would be impossible to type "O-N-E" instead of "T-W-O" unless you meant to. That's not a typo. So that's shady as well.
Deliberately misleading people is not polite behavior where I'm from, and I'm not surprised many on here found his lack of transparency in his eBay listing abhorrent.
Last edited by goofballdeluxe; 08-16-2012 at 12:04 PM.
08-16-2012, 11:38 AM
#521
Goofball, just stop. Stop bashing Chris when you don't know a single about him.
He is far from shady, fraudulent or any of the other inaccurate words used to describe him in the last few hundred posts.
You don't know him, and your really close, your on that thin line. I would just be quiet.
Didn't your momma tell ya something about "if you don't have something nice to say?"
He is far from shady, fraudulent or any of the other inaccurate words used to describe him in the last few hundred posts.
You don't know him, and your really close, your on that thin line. I would just be quiet.
Didn't your momma tell ya something about "if you don't have something nice to say?"
In my opinion, GYM GUY was absolutely a contributing problem when it comes to this transaction and how it played out.
Tony, I didn't mention GYM GUY by name, but if we're talking facts, the simple and undeniable fact was that he was less than forthcoming and transparent on this car and this deal.
That fact was the foundation on which a shady and fraudulent house of eBay cards was built.
And yes, Tony, you're an asset to the board, but you know as well as I you can be an acquired taste
Tony, I didn't mention GYM GUY by name, but if we're talking facts, the simple and undeniable fact was that he was less than forthcoming and transparent on this car and this deal.
That fact was the foundation on which a shady and fraudulent house of eBay cards was built.
And yes, Tony, you're an asset to the board, but you know as well as I you can be an acquired taste
08-16-2012, 11:42 AM
#522
You can try to bluff this all you want, but it is clear that many here have detected the foul stench of disingenuousness.
Let's look at the history of you and this car:
This has nothing to do with envy; I think we're all thrilled that you're getting so much for your car. Rather, this has everything to do with honesty and transparency on this board. I think it's hard to deny that your sales tactics with the car, at least here on Rennlist, have really been a near-total mess and have only hurt your reputation as being a stand-up guy.
Want to know how to avoid this in the future? Be honest. It's just that simple.
Go sell your car, buy your GT3 and pollute the GT3 board with your bullsh1t. The 993 board takes a really dim view of these antics.
Let's look at the history of you and this car:
- You buy the car, beating up an old guy in the process, under the premise of using as a daily driver but end up putting only 11 miles on the car, deciding in short order to sell the car. Everyone knows this is bullsh1t.
- You then state in your eBay ad that the car is a one owner car when it's really a two owner car. Everyone knows this is bullsh1t.
- You state that you meant that the ownership issue was a typo, implying that you meant to type in "two" instead of "one". Everyone knows this is bullsh1t.
- You also state that you posted the ad from your phone in a few minutes and that this is another reason why the ad states that the car only had one owner. Everyone knows this is bullsh1t.
- You waited several days before you corrected the ownership issue. Everyone knows this is bullsh1t.
This has nothing to do with envy; I think we're all thrilled that you're getting so much for your car. Rather, this has everything to do with honesty and transparency on this board. I think it's hard to deny that your sales tactics with the car, at least here on Rennlist, have really been a near-total mess and have only hurt your reputation as being a stand-up guy.
Want to know how to avoid this in the future? Be honest. It's just that simple.
Go sell your car, buy your GT3 and pollute the GT3 board with your bullsh1t. The 993 board takes a really dim view of these antics.
08-16-2012, 11:48 AM
#524
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Was this thread re-opened for the purpose of seeking our opinion on the accusation of false bidding, to continue discussing the auction in general or to see what the members think about this sort of thing going forward?
False bidding, if true and we do not have the info you have, is a rotten thing to do.
Continuing to discuss the original auction is pointless now - it has moved too far from civility.
Going forward...banning a person for screwing with a person's auction is a tough call because of two reasons. First...how do you verify, beyond a reasonable doubt, that it was the Rennlist member? Second...is it Rennlist's job to police activity that takes place off the forums?
Should be an interesting discussion.
False bidding, if true and we do not have the info you have, is a rotten thing to do.
Continuing to discuss the original auction is pointless now - it has moved too far from civility.
Going forward...banning a person for screwing with a person's auction is a tough call because of two reasons. First...how do you verify, beyond a reasonable doubt, that it was the Rennlist member? Second...is it Rennlist's job to police activity that takes place off the forums?
Should be an interesting discussion.
08-16-2012, 11:56 AM
#525
Yeah, this is the first I heard that a RLer (Bill) was banned for false bidding. Wow. I wonder why Bill would be so compelled to do so? What was his underlying reason? Interesting.
I bet had the listing not contained any errors/misrepresentation from the start, the auction would have played out much differently.
I guess the lesson here is always be honest when you list an eBay ad, and make damn sure any information you list on it is correct BEFORE you list. That will keep any people from wanting to sabotage your ad.
I dunno how close to crossing any line I am, as all I've received are plenty of PMs praising me for calling out the untruths I saw, and nothing from any moderator.
Anyway, I'm done posting on this thread. Have a great Thursday, all.
I bet had the listing not contained any errors/misrepresentation from the start, the auction would have played out much differently.
I guess the lesson here is always be honest when you list an eBay ad, and make damn sure any information you list on it is correct BEFORE you list. That will keep any people from wanting to sabotage your ad.
I dunno how close to crossing any line I am, as all I've received are plenty of PMs praising me for calling out the untruths I saw, and nothing from any moderator.
Anyway, I'm done posting on this thread. Have a great Thursday, all.