jscott82

Very True..... But he already has a bolt in, just as bad...

Mark in Baltimore

I thought camlob said that he'll use the car more on the track? My PCA G class car is "street legal" (tagged, titled and insured for the street) , and I never hesitate to drive it on the road with no helmet or other safety gear (SFI padding everywhere).

Ed Hughes

An unprotected skull has no chance against SFI padding in a mishap.

He mentioned spirited weekend driving, which I inferred to be on the street. **** happens.

jscott82

BSCI also makes a dual density padding... has an SFI core, but is wrapped in a slightly softer shell... Better than straight SFI padding…
I once asked a friend (orthopedic surgeon and club racer) what he thought of dual use cars, he agreed it is a bad idea yet he also drives his fully caged club race car on the street from time to time….

So bad idea, yes, I don’t think anyone would condone it… but…..

Ed Hughes

I put a brand new cage in the Targa at one time. It took me 2 minutes sitting in the seat to realize my head had no business being inches away with no helmet. Out came my torch and grinder.

Some doctors smoke, some have unprotected sex with strangers. Some people drive without seatbelts. Each to their own, and we should be free to make choices, but I thought the safety aspect was worth mentioning.

Mark in Baltimore

Ed,

Sounds like he's tracking the car a minimum of of, say, three times a year, maybe twelve times a year? That's a lot of track time.

Anyway, would you happen to have any empirical data to show how a human skull or radius would fare against a vinyl-padded A-pillar versus an SFI-padded A-pillar and the percentage of how better or worse the injury would be over one or the other? If not, perhaps it's conjecture to assume that a fully caged car with SFI padding would be less safe than a car without a cage. I know that I feel (highly subjective, yes) ten times safer in my fully caged 993 than my larger Sequoia. (Yes, "safety" needs to be defined, I know.)

jscott82

No empirical data, but hey, this is Rennlist who needs fact… conjecture is where its at…

I think the problem is shape and energy dispersion. A-pillar, b-pillar, and roofline are all flattened with respect to the how a body would strike it…. Roll bars (even sfi padded ones) are round, effectively forming a point no matter how you hit it.

Ed Hughes

No, I have no data, and I don't presume a cage is any worse than an A pillar Mark. I never stated such.

But, i do know my restraining belts will keep my head from hitting my A pillar, and I know that if an impact happened from the wrong direction, or in a rollover, my head could've hit the upper crossbar on my cage. Period. That is empirical data, and I am pretty sure most necks would extend far enough to do the same with most people in a 911 with a full cage. I'm tall, but again, a restraining belt has some give, and necks do extend. SFI padding is pretty dense stuff, and wasn't designed to protect a bare skull from a rollbar.

Ed Hughes

PS, I do have the SFI padded rollbar in the Targa still, but far enough away from my head to hit.

Leon993

Rob Dickinson, the creator of the Singer 911 stitch-welds his vehicles. I know he has put alot of thought into his cars, and he is very forthcoming about his methods. Contact him at Singer Vehicle Design and get some of this thoughts.

camlob

Hi Mark, Can you post a pic of your cage? Tnx

Paul

camlob

Hmm.....I really like his cars and it was probably a high consideration in his vehicle prep. Thanks for sharing the info. I need to give it much thought. Maybe a stitch weld and a rear cage for looks eh?

camlob

Hi Phil, Yes I will tell him zip ties dont cut it with motons!!

Paul

Mark in Baltimore

I only used the A-pillars as an example. Your statements, save for your assertion that your head will hit your main hoop, are pure conjecture, just as mine are. My main hoop is very far away from my head (I sit super-close to the steering wheel), as are the main hoops of almost all of the cup cars I've seen. Regardless, the real issue is the longitudinal bar near the top of the doors where I can hit my head.

This reminds me of roll bar threads on Miata.net where the available roll bars are close to the back of the head, so the choice is to run with zero rollover protection, thereby guaranteeing death or paralysis in a roll over versus having the back of your head potentially hit the roll bar. I made my choice and run a roll bar in my Miata.

For camlob, the choices are similar but different. We're talking about a car with a roll cage versus a car without a roll cage and, in a crash, I'll take the caged car over the non-caged car, all day, every day. Cross an intersection and get T-boned? I'll take the caged car. Lose control and back into a jersey barrier at an angle? I'll take the caged car. Flip the car? I'll take the caged car.

I'm not saying that there aren't safety compromises with the cage, for the tubing may cause fractures. But I always find it interesting that people seem to ignore the fact that behind the alcantara or leather or plastic is cold, hard steel that can {{{conjecture}}} do as much or nearly as much damage as an SFI-padded tube. Yes, I have no data.

I agree that this can be a problem, but I'd love to see data to support it. I still maintain that I'd rather be in my caged 993 than my multi air bagged Sequoia

Mark in Baltimore

https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...cage-pics.html