Mobil one oil formulations (w/ updated spec sheet)
#17
#18
1200 ppm ZDP is the minimum number for air cooled engines
- 15w-50 Mobil 1 for Street applications
- 0w-30/0w-50 M1 for Track applications
#19
Hi Ted,
As a data point on Mobil 1 oils, the 15w-50 product is listed as an API-SM rated product and if you read the actual SM specifications, it calls for a Zn & P level less than 1100ppm for both elements.
I've spoken to several people at E-M and to date, nobody has offered any plausible explanation for this discrepancy. IMHO, someone at that company doesn't have their facts straight or is telling a tall tale. Until thats resolved, I'm not recommending this one for air-cooled engines.
For me, my comfort level lies with recommending their V-Twin oils: something that has a sufficiently robust additive package to protect these engines.
As a data point on Mobil 1 oils, the 15w-50 product is listed as an API-SM rated product and if you read the actual SM specifications, it calls for a Zn & P level less than 1100ppm for both elements.
I've spoken to several people at E-M and to date, nobody has offered any plausible explanation for this discrepancy. IMHO, someone at that company doesn't have their facts straight or is telling a tall tale. Until thats resolved, I'm not recommending this one for air-cooled engines.
For me, my comfort level lies with recommending their V-Twin oils: something that has a sufficiently robust additive package to protect these engines.
#20
Hi Ted,
As a data point on Mobil 1 oils, the 15w-50 product is listed as an API-SM rated product and if you read the actual SM specifications, it calls for a Zn & P level less than 1100ppm for both elements.
I've spoken to several people at E-M and to date, nobody has offered any plausible explanation for this discrepancy. IMHO, someone at that company doesn't have their facts straight or is telling a tall tale. Until thats resolved, I'm not recommending this one for air-cooled engines.
For me, my comfort level lies with recommending their V-Twin oils: something that has a sufficiently robust additive package to protect these engines.
As a data point on Mobil 1 oils, the 15w-50 product is listed as an API-SM rated product and if you read the actual SM specifications, it calls for a Zn & P level less than 1100ppm for both elements.
I've spoken to several people at E-M and to date, nobody has offered any plausible explanation for this discrepancy. IMHO, someone at that company doesn't have their facts straight or is telling a tall tale. Until thats resolved, I'm not recommending this one for air-cooled engines.
For me, my comfort level lies with recommending their V-Twin oils: something that has a sufficiently robust additive package to protect these engines.
Yes, you can get even more at extra expense from the V-twin oils or Brad Penn or Joe Gibbs or the racing M1 oils.
#21
Just did mine yesterday, 3 qts. M1 V-Twin 20w50, remainder is M1 15w50, should last me a year.
As Bill said, the 15w50 in the 5L jugs is nice (didn't buy it for the jugs though).
As Bill said, the 15w50 in the 5L jugs is nice (didn't buy it for the jugs though).
#22
Van1, to answer your specific question, yes, you're o.k. with the Brad Penn 20w50 Racing. BTW, they're now offering a 15W40 Racing, not to be confused with their 15W40 diesel. I had been blending their 10W30 and 20W50 to achieve the 15W40 and I guess the demand was there. Just purchased 2 cases. The way gas prices are escalating, oil is sure to follow.
#23
Also, I try to stay away from large spreads such as 0W-50. Over time, it isn't a 0W-50 anymore.
#24
see here for examples
well I wouldn't have an issue w/ the M1 0w-50 racing oil, 'over time' is a nebulous concept, these oils are changed out(of my car at least) way before the relevant packages are used up or the chemistry can change.
#25
Hi Ted,
On what information do you base the need for 1,200 ppm for our cars? Do you have wear data for these oils? I spoke with a Mobil One rep at SEMA and she was not able to shed alot of light on the subject - similar to Steve's experience. I do find it informative that the motorcycle oils still contain the high levels of Zn and Ph as they do not have the cat-poisoning issue. If the additive wasn't helpful, it wouldn't be necessary for the bikes either.
On what information do you base the need for 1,200 ppm for our cars? Do you have wear data for these oils? I spoke with a Mobil One rep at SEMA and she was not able to shed alot of light on the subject - similar to Steve's experience. I do find it informative that the motorcycle oils still contain the high levels of Zn and Ph as they do not have the cat-poisoning issue. If the additive wasn't helpful, it wouldn't be necessary for the bikes either.
#26
Hi Ted,
On what information do you base the need for 1,200 ppm for our cars? Do you have wear data for these oils? I spoke with a Mobil One rep at SEMA and she was not able to shed alot of light on the subject - similar to Steve's experience. I do find it informative that the motorcycle oils still contain the high levels of Zn and Ph as they do not have the cat-poisoning issue. If the additive wasn't helpful, it wouldn't be necessary for the bikes either.
On what information do you base the need for 1,200 ppm for our cars? Do you have wear data for these oils? I spoke with a Mobil One rep at SEMA and she was not able to shed alot of light on the subject - similar to Steve's experience. I do find it informative that the motorcycle oils still contain the high levels of Zn and Ph as they do not have the cat-poisoning issue. If the additive wasn't helpful, it wouldn't be necessary for the bikes either.
The details of Mr. Grants research maybe found at this site.http://www.britishmotoring.net/curre...ow-To_full.pdf
The short version is summarized below ... hope this helps
BY MICHAEL GRANT
The Question.
Which oil should I use in my classic car? It’s incredibly important to ask this question. Why? The reduced level of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (known as ZDDP, ZDP or ZnDTP) in modern motor oil has been linked to increasing numbers of tappet and camshaft failures in vintage engines.
What Exactly Is the Problem?
The cam/tappet failure problems often begin with a freshly rebuilt engine that starts making expensive-sounding noises. Inspection might reveal that the bottom of one or more tappets is gone. Instead of a smooth, machined surface, the face of the tappet will look like the surface of the moon. If the problem is the camshaft, it will exhibit one or more worn lobes. Just one failed tappet or cam lobe will create a problem, as the damage results from direct metal-to-metal contact. With metal debris in the sump, here is no choice but to tear down and rebuild the engine. Choosing an assembly lube and motor oil is critical in preventing this metal-to-metal contact. Corrosion, which occurs over time when classics are not driven, is another serious issue. Normal motor oil is designed to lubricate, not to coat or protect metal surfaces from corrosion. All oil absorbs moisture from the atmosphere. Running the engine will eliminate this moisture, but leaving a car to sit for extended periods of time will lead to corrosion. Using an oil product that forms a clinging protective film on the exposed metal parts can minimize this problem. If the oil contains special corrosion inhibitors, all the better. Repair shops specializing in British cars have been dealing with these issues for years, and most have developed a combination of parts, machine work, engine prep and lubricants to reduce these problems. Many shops cite assembly lube, oil and the amount of ZDDP in the oil as major concerns.
What Is ZDDP?
Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate is an oil supplement that has served as the primary extreme pressure (EP) ingredient in all quality motor oils for the past 70 years—until recently. What does it do? When exposed to heat and pressure, ZDDP forms a protective film on metal surfaces that prevents parts (cam lobes and tappets, for example) from making metal-to-metal contact.
Why Do I Suddenly Need ZDDP?
ZDDP has been phased out because it damages catalytic converters. Small amounts of zinc and phosphorus in the ZDDP coat the catalytic material, reducing the effective life of the converter. The ZDDP level in motor oil was reduced from 0.15 to 0.12 percent (1,500 to 1,200 PPM) in 1993, and further reduced from 0.08 to 0.06 percent (800 to 600 PPM) in API SM-grade oil in 2004. But is this level enough for an older engine, especially when it isn’t run frequently? And is it enough to protect the cam and lifters in a freshly rebuilt older engine during the critical break-in period? The experience of hundreds of professional engine rebuilders, cam manufacturers and restorers indicates the mandated ZDDP level is not enough. The Engine Builders Association concluded that 75 percent of reported cam/tappet failures were due to the reduction in ZDDP. Association Technical Bulletin 2333R (November 2007) says current engine oils used by engine manufacturers in new car production should not be used for initial flat tappet/camshaft break-in. It recommends adding additional zinc for camshaft and lifter break-in. Most cam manufacturers also have specific instructions regarding assembly lube and break-in oil, citing cam/tappet failures.
So What Should I Do?
The following guidelines can help you prevent cam/tappet failure and protect your engine.
Initial Break-In Period (First 30 minutes):Use oil with ZDDP at 0.14 to 0.15 percent by weight (1,400 to 1,500 PPM) to provide the additional protection needed to maximize the chances of a successful cam/tappet break-in.
First 500 Miles After Initial Break-In:After that initial 20- to 30-minute break-in period, change the oil and oil filter. The oil you run after break-in will not need as much ZDDP; 0.10 to 0.12 percent ZDDP will provide protection without risking chemical corrosion.
After the First 1,000 Miles (Car Driven Frequently):If you drive your car once a week for 30 minutes or more with the oil between 170 and 200 degrees, you have more options. Driving the car frequently will minimize the amount of acid, water and water vapor in the crankcase, and that will limit the corrosion and subsequent pitting of the cam lobes and lifters. Using 20W-50 API SM oil with 0.08 percent ZDDP can be fine, but if you are more conservative, a ZDDP level of 0.10 to 0.12 percent will provide additional protection.
The above article may be seen on page 21 at this site.http://www.britishmotoring.net/curre...009_Winter.pdf
The Question.
Which oil should I use in my classic car? It’s incredibly important to ask this question. Why? The reduced level of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (known as ZDDP, ZDP or ZnDTP) in modern motor oil has been linked to increasing numbers of tappet and camshaft failures in vintage engines.
What Exactly Is the Problem?
The cam/tappet failure problems often begin with a freshly rebuilt engine that starts making expensive-sounding noises. Inspection might reveal that the bottom of one or more tappets is gone. Instead of a smooth, machined surface, the face of the tappet will look like the surface of the moon. If the problem is the camshaft, it will exhibit one or more worn lobes. Just one failed tappet or cam lobe will create a problem, as the damage results from direct metal-to-metal contact. With metal debris in the sump, here is no choice but to tear down and rebuild the engine. Choosing an assembly lube and motor oil is critical in preventing this metal-to-metal contact. Corrosion, which occurs over time when classics are not driven, is another serious issue. Normal motor oil is designed to lubricate, not to coat or protect metal surfaces from corrosion. All oil absorbs moisture from the atmosphere. Running the engine will eliminate this moisture, but leaving a car to sit for extended periods of time will lead to corrosion. Using an oil product that forms a clinging protective film on the exposed metal parts can minimize this problem. If the oil contains special corrosion inhibitors, all the better. Repair shops specializing in British cars have been dealing with these issues for years, and most have developed a combination of parts, machine work, engine prep and lubricants to reduce these problems. Many shops cite assembly lube, oil and the amount of ZDDP in the oil as major concerns.
What Is ZDDP?
Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate is an oil supplement that has served as the primary extreme pressure (EP) ingredient in all quality motor oils for the past 70 years—until recently. What does it do? When exposed to heat and pressure, ZDDP forms a protective film on metal surfaces that prevents parts (cam lobes and tappets, for example) from making metal-to-metal contact.
Why Do I Suddenly Need ZDDP?
ZDDP has been phased out because it damages catalytic converters. Small amounts of zinc and phosphorus in the ZDDP coat the catalytic material, reducing the effective life of the converter. The ZDDP level in motor oil was reduced from 0.15 to 0.12 percent (1,500 to 1,200 PPM) in 1993, and further reduced from 0.08 to 0.06 percent (800 to 600 PPM) in API SM-grade oil in 2004. But is this level enough for an older engine, especially when it isn’t run frequently? And is it enough to protect the cam and lifters in a freshly rebuilt older engine during the critical break-in period? The experience of hundreds of professional engine rebuilders, cam manufacturers and restorers indicates the mandated ZDDP level is not enough. The Engine Builders Association concluded that 75 percent of reported cam/tappet failures were due to the reduction in ZDDP. Association Technical Bulletin 2333R (November 2007) says current engine oils used by engine manufacturers in new car production should not be used for initial flat tappet/camshaft break-in. It recommends adding additional zinc for camshaft and lifter break-in. Most cam manufacturers also have specific instructions regarding assembly lube and break-in oil, citing cam/tappet failures.
So What Should I Do?
The following guidelines can help you prevent cam/tappet failure and protect your engine.
Initial Break-In Period (First 30 minutes):Use oil with ZDDP at 0.14 to 0.15 percent by weight (1,400 to 1,500 PPM) to provide the additional protection needed to maximize the chances of a successful cam/tappet break-in.
First 500 Miles After Initial Break-In:After that initial 20- to 30-minute break-in period, change the oil and oil filter. The oil you run after break-in will not need as much ZDDP; 0.10 to 0.12 percent ZDDP will provide protection without risking chemical corrosion.
After the First 1,000 Miles (Car Driven Frequently):If you drive your car once a week for 30 minutes or more with the oil between 170 and 200 degrees, you have more options. Driving the car frequently will minimize the amount of acid, water and water vapor in the crankcase, and that will limit the corrosion and subsequent pitting of the cam lobes and lifters. Using 20W-50 API SM oil with 0.08 percent ZDDP can be fine, but if you are more conservative, a ZDDP level of 0.10 to 0.12 percent will provide additional protection.
The above article may be seen on page 21 at this site.http://www.britishmotoring.net/curre...009_Winter.pdf
#27
I've often wondered and asked the question many times on forums..."how much do I need?"
The list of references in that article is long, but then I can ask another question.
My 1999 daily driver has 199,400 kms (~124,000 miles) on it. Its driven all year, just about every day with cold starts down to -20F. I've used nothing but Mobil 1 5W-30 since the first inspection. That oil has 800/900 ppm.
Having just installed a new timing belt and associated parts a few months ago, my cams and followers looked like they just came out of the package on the assembly line. Absolutely no scuffing on the approach side of the cams and no pitting of any kind anywhere, period!
So I'm wondering, how much more protection do I need?
The list of references in that article is long, but then I can ask another question.
My 1999 daily driver has 199,400 kms (~124,000 miles) on it. Its driven all year, just about every day with cold starts down to -20F. I've used nothing but Mobil 1 5W-30 since the first inspection. That oil has 800/900 ppm.
Having just installed a new timing belt and associated parts a few months ago, my cams and followers looked like they just came out of the package on the assembly line. Absolutely no scuffing on the approach side of the cams and no pitting of any kind anywhere, period!
So I'm wondering, how much more protection do I need?
#28
I've often wondered and asked the question many times on forums..."how much do I need?"
The list of references in that article is long, but then I can ask another question.
My 1999 daily driver has 199,400 kms (~124,000 miles) on it. Its driven all year, just about every day with cold starts down to -20F.
I've used nothing but Mobil 1 5W-30 since the first inspection. That oil has 800/900 ppm.
So I'm wondering, how much more protection do I need?
The list of references in that article is long, but then I can ask another question.
My 1999 daily driver has 199,400 kms (~124,000 miles) on it. Its driven all year, just about every day with cold starts down to -20F.
I've used nothing but Mobil 1 5W-30 since the first inspection. That oil has 800/900 ppm.
So I'm wondering, how much more protection do I need?
The Mobil 1 5W-30 that you have used since the first inspection was reformulated and had 1200 ppm ZDDP when first available in 1993.
I would stick with the new Mobil 1 15w-50 for our cars.
Last edited by FlatSix911; 11-28-2011 at 04:11 AM.
#29
Just perused the article quickly and found this intersting statement:
Those of us tempted to use a ZDDP additive should take notice that too much is also bad.
Paradoxically, ZDDP is also a wear agent. One paper on valve train wear points out “…that the formation of an anti-wear film involves an element of metal wastage in the form of chemical wear [chemical corrosion], and that the use of more active ZDPs causes more chemical wear.”2 The available data indicates that ZDDP in concentrations of 0.15% (1500
M:\R & D\Tech-Product Tips\British\All British\Oil_2\Article_British Motoring\Oil for Vintage Cars_British Motoring.doc
Created by Michael Grant on 3/19/2008 5:51:00 PM Michael Grant Page 7 of 25
PPM) provides additional protection against scuffing, but these concentrations will increase wear due in part to this chemical corrosion. At 0.20% (2,000 PPM), the ZDDP has been found to attack the grain boundaries in the iron.7 Simply stated, ZDDP is like a lot of things; in the right amount, it is beneficial, but too much will cause problems.
M:\R & D\Tech-Product Tips\British\All British\Oil_2\Article_British Motoring\Oil for Vintage Cars_British Motoring.doc
Created by Michael Grant on 3/19/2008 5:51:00 PM Michael Grant Page 7 of 25
PPM) provides additional protection against scuffing, but these concentrations will increase wear due in part to this chemical corrosion. At 0.20% (2,000 PPM), the ZDDP has been found to attack the grain boundaries in the iron.7 Simply stated, ZDDP is like a lot of things; in the right amount, it is beneficial, but too much will cause problems.
#30
Very good point ... I do not recommend using a ZDDP additive ... stick with 15w-50 Mobil 1 and you will be fine.