Almost made a huge mistake today
12-10-2010, 01:23 AM
#31
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Greater Seattle (via NH)
Posts: 552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To those who wanted to know some numbers. My 993 is a '95 Cab, tip, 78k miles, clean Car Fax. The car was repainted before I bought it - but no accidents - probably just road rash and age. Newish top (dealer installed) perfect condition.
Interesting, KBB (as I've read on several sites) has gone way up in used car values on 911s. My "trade in (good not excellent condition) was about $25k. Nada was at $22k and Edmonds bringing up the rear at $15k. (Nada and Edmonds use the term "clean" not "good" (but not excellent).
On the occasions I have looked at trading the 993 - I have first always spoken with the used car manager and told them: "I don't want to waste everyone's time. If you're not going to retail the car on your own lot, this deal is not going to work. I expect full trade in value - and not some "I'll wholesale it off just to get rid of it". Prior to today, both Ford stores I visited happen to have sold used 911's in the past year. One was a '03 996 C4, the other an '03 Turbo. The store I visited today has never - in the 4 years I've lived here, every advertised any used car that would suggest they would retail my 993 (cars such as M3s or even 3 series bmws, Jaguar, Mercedes, etc).
I sort of thought I was wasting my time - but it was a brilliant sunny day and I had nothing pressing to do so off I went.
Net, he offered me about $15k against approx. $3k off the original Monroney sticker on the GT Mustang. I told him: "thanks but no thanks" and walked out.
In this market and in the Pacific Northwest, I think a private sale (via PCA and/or Rennlisters) might bring mid to high $20's on this car - but only in Spring/Summer). There is also Park Place in Bellevue - who sells cars on consignment - less 10% comission. I don't want to tie up my money in a second car while they try and sell mine (if they would even take mine on consignment - they usually only take in near concours cars - many of theirs wind up at Barrett Jackson or RM auctions).
The other two Ford stores were all in the $15k trade in value range.
Interesting, KBB (as I've read on several sites) has gone way up in used car values on 911s. My "trade in (good not excellent condition) was about $25k. Nada was at $22k and Edmonds bringing up the rear at $15k. (Nada and Edmonds use the term "clean" not "good" (but not excellent).
On the occasions I have looked at trading the 993 - I have first always spoken with the used car manager and told them: "I don't want to waste everyone's time. If you're not going to retail the car on your own lot, this deal is not going to work. I expect full trade in value - and not some "I'll wholesale it off just to get rid of it". Prior to today, both Ford stores I visited happen to have sold used 911's in the past year. One was a '03 996 C4, the other an '03 Turbo. The store I visited today has never - in the 4 years I've lived here, every advertised any used car that would suggest they would retail my 993 (cars such as M3s or even 3 series bmws, Jaguar, Mercedes, etc).
I sort of thought I was wasting my time - but it was a brilliant sunny day and I had nothing pressing to do so off I went.
Net, he offered me about $15k against approx. $3k off the original Monroney sticker on the GT Mustang. I told him: "thanks but no thanks" and walked out.
In this market and in the Pacific Northwest, I think a private sale (via PCA and/or Rennlisters) might bring mid to high $20's on this car - but only in Spring/Summer). There is also Park Place in Bellevue - who sells cars on consignment - less 10% comission. I don't want to tie up my money in a second car while they try and sell mine (if they would even take mine on consignment - they usually only take in near concours cars - many of theirs wind up at Barrett Jackson or RM auctions).
The other two Ford stores were all in the $15k trade in value range.
12-10-2010, 01:34 AM
#32
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Greater Seattle (via NH)
Posts: 552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ClintonM3:
I agree there are some ethical car salesmen. I've met under 5 in my 60 odd purchases. I also read a story here in the Seattle area two years ago about a group of Ford salespeople who took advantage of an older guy. He came in to buy an F150. Paid cash. He apparently let slip that he had about $100k in cash in his house. They delayed him at the dealership and one of the degenerates broke into his home and stole his money. Then to add insult to injury - they somehow finagled the truck (which he had paid cash in full for) back from him (stole it back).
This dealership lost its franchise and at least three of these jerks went to jail (which was appropriate).
As to dealers having the right to get what they can, that is the free market. It should be like that. My problem with many dealers is they deliberately disguise their "added dealer mark up" with look alike Monroney sticker clones. They use a variety of tricks (such as Dealer packs - the famous "paint sealant (a wax job) for $300, interior protection package (a spray can of 3M Scotch guard) for $300, "undercoating !!" ($600), and "wheel locks" for $150 (a set at any part store is $20). They also typically use a variety of tricks to simply wear the prospective customer down. Watch the movie "Used Cars (Kurt Russel) or Fargo (William Macy).
You may be a great sales person, honest and ethical. But as the majority rules, you are in a profession that does not measure up well in society.
I agree there are some ethical car salesmen. I've met under 5 in my 60 odd purchases. I also read a story here in the Seattle area two years ago about a group of Ford salespeople who took advantage of an older guy. He came in to buy an F150. Paid cash. He apparently let slip that he had about $100k in cash in his house. They delayed him at the dealership and one of the degenerates broke into his home and stole his money. Then to add insult to injury - they somehow finagled the truck (which he had paid cash in full for) back from him (stole it back).
This dealership lost its franchise and at least three of these jerks went to jail (which was appropriate).
As to dealers having the right to get what they can, that is the free market. It should be like that. My problem with many dealers is they deliberately disguise their "added dealer mark up" with look alike Monroney sticker clones. They use a variety of tricks (such as Dealer packs - the famous "paint sealant (a wax job) for $300, interior protection package (a spray can of 3M Scotch guard) for $300, "undercoating !!" ($600), and "wheel locks" for $150 (a set at any part store is $20). They also typically use a variety of tricks to simply wear the prospective customer down. Watch the movie "Used Cars (Kurt Russel) or Fargo (William Macy).
You may be a great sales person, honest and ethical. But as the majority rules, you are in a profession that does not measure up well in society.
12-10-2010, 05:09 AM
#35
Rennlist Member
The fact that you think your cab, tip with 78k mi and a full respray is worth mid-to-high $20s explains a lot. Based on what you've written here, $15k for your car with $3k off the new car sounds like a pretty reasonable deal.
I can only imagine that for every guy that has your level of apathy for car sales people there has to be a car salesman with the same level of apathy for buyers who think dealers are in the business of paying top dollar for trade-ins and giving away their cars at cost.
As a guy who's owned dozens of cars, it's hard to believe you've owned 60 cars and would approach things this way. Sorry.
I can only imagine that for every guy that has your level of apathy for car sales people there has to be a car salesman with the same level of apathy for buyers who think dealers are in the business of paying top dollar for trade-ins and giving away their cars at cost.
As a guy who's owned dozens of cars, it's hard to believe you've owned 60 cars and would approach things this way. Sorry.
12-10-2010, 05:12 AM
#36
The fact that you think your cab, tip with 78k mi and a full respray is worth mid-to-high $20s explains a lot. Based on what you've written here, $15k for your car with $3k off the new car sounds like a pretty reasonable deal.
I can only imagine that for every guy that has your level of apathy for car sales people there has to be a car salesman with the same level of apathy for buyers who think dealers are in the business of paying top dollar for trade-ins and giving away their cars at cost.
As a guy who's owned dozens of cars, it's hard to believe you've owned 60 cars and would approach things this way. Sorry.
I can only imagine that for every guy that has your level of apathy for car sales people there has to be a car salesman with the same level of apathy for buyers who think dealers are in the business of paying top dollar for trade-ins and giving away their cars at cost.
As a guy who's owned dozens of cars, it's hard to believe you've owned 60 cars and would approach things this way. Sorry.
12-10-2010, 05:23 AM
#37
15k sounds way too low.
Secondly, in just three years time the 993 will likely be worth more than the mustang.
Last edited by Bouzoukikid; 12-10-2010 at 05:53 AM.
12-10-2010, 07:35 AM
#38
Instructor
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Alpharetta GA
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rode in a friends '07 mustang yesterday. They look nice and the new ones even better. This one had the V8 and I wasn't all that impressed with the acceleration. I know the new one is significantly faster. What jumped out at me was the shoddy, creaky interior. The plastic was creaking over every bump, the seats were beyond uncomfortable... really cheap. He did say he hadn't had a single problem with it though.
Not for me... my 15yo 993 interior is in MUCH better shape than his. No creaks anywhere. For that matter, my '98LC with 170k miles feels a lot more solid than his Mustang.
Not for me... my 15yo 993 interior is in MUCH better shape than his. No creaks anywhere. For that matter, my '98LC with 170k miles feels a lot more solid than his Mustang.
12-10-2010, 08:20 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
As so many others have said, a Ford Mustang for a 993??? WTF? Sounds like owning a 993 is just a lark for you or maybe a stepping stone. That makes sense if the next step is a Ferrari Maranello or a Ford GT. But a Mustang? You don't truly love the marque or the model.
Also, the dealer offered you much more for your repainted '95 cab with 78k miles than I would have guessed. No way your car is worth upper $20k even in the spring, unless your area is caught in a time warp from 2005. This spring, put your cab on the market for $28k and see how quickly it flies off of the shelves. I think your price is closer to around $20k.
Also, the dealer offered you much more for your repainted '95 cab with 78k miles than I would have guessed. No way your car is worth upper $20k even in the spring, unless your area is caught in a time warp from 2005. This spring, put your cab on the market for $28k and see how quickly it flies off of the shelves. I think your price is closer to around $20k.
12-10-2010, 10:02 AM
#40
Rennlist Member
Seventeen months later, I was only too happy to see someone else rolling down the street in it. What a piece of $hit; I'm amazed that any manufacturer would waste so many resources (labor and materials) trying to build a car. And that was in the days where their slogan was, "Quality Is Job 1". Why would one need to advertize that?
12-10-2010, 10:31 AM
#42
Race Director
If Ford's history is any guide, the poor quality of the materials, let alone the workmanship, will make this car after 5 years very rough.
You can say what you want about Porsche, but the 993s were usually put together quite well. Compare my 15-year old C4S to any 15-year old Ford piece of crap and you'll have your answer.
Performance wise, it may be pretty good. And that's where it ends. As it always has for American muscle.
You can say what you want about Porsche, but the 993s were usually put together quite well. Compare my 15-year old C4S to any 15-year old Ford piece of crap and you'll have your answer.
Performance wise, it may be pretty good. And that's where it ends. As it always has for American muscle.
Just because its a ford, its a piece of crap. That is very short sighted and narrowminded.
I have to agree. For what it is, I think Ford did a pretty good job with the new Mustang - especially the 302. I drive past the local Ford dealer every day and check to see if the 5.0 I would pick off the lot is still there...but in reality I could never part with my 993.
It would feel like selling one of my kids...
It would feel like selling one of my kids...
Overpowered? Lol, thats a bad thing. You can keep your 282bhp, give me the 415.
All that your statements show is that you haven't driven a modern mustang. They are very capable and have had significant success on ALL racetracks.
I get zero thumbs up or compliments on my 993 TT. I got more in my 99 cobra. So to answer your question, yes, with a clean, nice shape 1996 V8 mustang, you would absolutely get thumbs up and compliments.
12-10-2010, 10:38 AM
#44
Rennlist Member
My SIL's Mustang isn't terrible... suspension sucks, but well powered, and I dug the gearing on the manual transmission.
You thought $15k trade on your car was a bad deal? Really?!?!?!
Your broad brush description of car salespersons is a cheap shot. Seriously. As for your recounting of the home invasion... sounds like some criminals moonlighting as car sales guys, not the other way around.
Why were you looking at Mustangs again?
You thought $15k trade on your car was a bad deal? Really?!?!?!
Your broad brush description of car salespersons is a cheap shot. Seriously. As for your recounting of the home invasion... sounds like some criminals moonlighting as car sales guys, not the other way around.
Why were you looking at Mustangs again?
