Rick, would be happy to ride with you, I just got my 993 race car so need to learn the "special" traits of car, figure racing at Sebring for a number of years in my past cars 968CS and early 911 should give me a good start with the 993.
Rich

 

Congrats Rick! It feels great, doesn't it?

Now to the problems...

There is one major problem in your driving which is very easy to correct but can be a big problem nonetheless.

Once you start driving real fast which means you'll have rear end sliding a bit etc., you're in trouble when you do this (see image below)... Can you tell me why?

Sorry to be critical but honestly, if I was your instructor, I would've made you correct that before signing you off.

But congrats again, you're doing well!

 

No clue. where is that in the vid? turn 13?

 

Is it hand position? I understood the PCA party line is shuffle steering with hands at 9&3 in the turns. Did I get that wrong?

 

At Suncoast they teach the hand shuffle (hands at 9 and 3, shuffle your steering wheel as you turn) most other regions teach to keep your hands on the wheel, don't shuffle so you can quickly return to a straight car with hands at 9-3.

 

Yep, hand position is the problem.

And yes, the shuffle steering it wrong, the fact that PCA teaches it, is a huge problem. Unless you have mistaken the 9-3 rule since the way I see it, is you should always keep your hands at 9-3 position on the steering wheel so when you turn your steering wheel, your hands turn as well.
I know there are some pros who do some shuffle steering but that's an exception, not a rule.

It's much better to keep your hands in the same positions when you turn, NOT to take them off, re-position, then take the off again and re-position again.

This is so that when you start going faster and car is getting more and more loose etc. you will be "sawing" the wheel and with the "shuffle", that's not good.

In Sebring, you can do it in hairpin although even in stock 993 it's not necessary (I don't do it) but you do it in every corner for no reason.

The photo I posted shows you IIRC in T10 (although you do the same thing in T13 and basically in all corners).

Think about if you're like that and get an oversteer (WILL happen when you start going faster)?

Your steering wheel is turned almost 90 degrees but your hands are turned 0 degrees, the sudden oversteer happens which means you need to counter steer to the left which VERY often means turning your steering wheel 180 degrees to the left but with hands positioned like that, you can physically only turn the wheel by 90 degrees meaning you're only straightening your wheels and not counter steering at all.

End result = spin.

If there are instructors who says shuffle steering and correcting a slide in a situation like that by taking your hands off the wheel, re-positioning them etc. etc. is a better way to go, they shouldn't be instructors. Some times you need to take the hands off and counter steer even more but at least you want to have as much leverage as possible and not shuffle steering gives you that.

Here's a video from Sebring which is a collection of "moments" from one day when pushing real hard (chasing down a 964 race car with worn out tires).
For example, look at 32 sec mark and imagine how that would've ended if I had my hands positioned at 9-3 positions while turning...
Video from Sebring
Below are 6 screen prints from that turn where the pretty quick snap on oversteer happens.
1st image, just turning nicely.
2nd, correcting a little.
3rd, correcting some more.
4th, back to almost straight.
5th, need to correct again and this time more (look how much I'm counter steering, that's the left hand).
6th, all good.

Sorry to repeat myself but I think this is important, imagine correcting that slide with hands positioned the way those instructor's have though you.

 

Finn:
Your video makes a very compelling argument against shuffle steering...It's funny, I wouldn't have been signed off for solo with Suncoast doing it your way...You know what us students say: "the one thing all instructors have in common is that they all say something different."
I know the big thing Suncoast has against fixed hand steering is in cars with airbags, they are worried about an airbag deployment with arms crossed, breaking the driver's arms. I'm not sure why they have this concern. Maybe a past accident?
Anyway, I think I probably agree with you that fixed hand is better for oversteer...

 

The way I see it, by the time you're off the track and heading towards a wall, be it on your roof or on all fours, I imagine your hands aren't going to be anywhere near where they were when you last had four on.

 

Congrats!

I had the same feelings you did when I went out solo. Don't mess up! I relaxed and had a great time. Still good to get an instructor in the car at times to help.

Shuffle-steering...wow...did not see or understand the impact and have been using it quite frequently. I guess it's time to lose that habit.

http://www.youtube.com/AtlJimK

 

DE is not racing - I'm not here to defend Suncoast PCA although I am an instructor for this group.

From a safety standpoint - at a spin "both feet in" is what is taught - no need to be a hero - In fact, I've personally seen a couple heroes go nose first into the inside of 16 - not sure which hand technique they were using at the time.

FF - nice driving - and I agree that a fixed hand position is much better to transition the car - but really I think the goal of PCA is to safely get them to a point where they can drive the track at speed and in control so that they can further develop their driving abilities on their own.

Sunocast PCA line on 17 isn't even in the same zip code as the racing line, same with entry to 16. 8,9,10 is taught to wide arch - not going to get you ahead in a race.

From a learning standpoint - there's two perspectives (and I follow the company line) - usually after a ride in my car the first comment I get from a student is wow you are really sawing the wheel back and forward ... tough to do if you are shuffling...

Rick, congrats on the solo step -

 

Rick,

I'm sure nobody would be signed off to solo doing it the way that video shows!

And for a reason. That was in a advanced solo/instructor group with only few cars out there and corner workers knew I and the 964 were into it together.
And btw, I did go into pits after "all fours off" to check that everything was cool.

+1

I never understood the "airbag - hands crossed" argument for the reason you mention.

I completely agree, DE is not racing.
Hell, those cones for apex points, they're waaaay off if you want to go real fast.
But they are late for a reason, it's much safer to turn in late than early.

When I have students, I always tell them to follow the cones because it's the safe way to do, only when a racer or very advanced driver asks me to help, I tell them to more faster, but risker way.

But I don't see how shuffling and keeping hands always in 9-3 position is safer than keeping them "fixed" in steering wheel? In fact, I'd argue against it.
I always tell my students to not to shuffle even though I don't tell them to turn in real early for T1 because that's the hairiest place to realize you arrived into it way too fast.

I'm curious (seriously, not trying to be a smartass), why would shuffling be safer than not?

Re: spin / sliding.
I think at some point DE drivers arrive at the point when they spin or at least slide a bit and I believe it would be good if they were at least somewhat prepared for it instead of just "two feet in", that's why I tried some time ago to have wet skid pad included in DEs where students could go with instructor and spine & slide their car in a safe place.
It was done once in Moroso but I don't think it has ever happened after that.

Also AutoX, especially when it happens to rain, is a great place to practice car control for those "hairy" situations.

Oh, and to get back to T17 line, I think there 856,000 different lines going through that turn, whether DE or racing, I certainly haven't figured that one out!

 

Here Here! I totally recommend the autocross/skidpath BEFORE setting one wheel on the track - usually one of the first things I ask - have you spun before - have you attended an autocross before - if not how the heck do you know how it feels? I've put in that recommendation - and with an uneasy driver have even taken them out to the parking lot between back straight and pits and had them do a low speed spin - corner corner corner - now let off on the gas, see how it feels??

Oh - and I am just a worker bee - I'm not a policy maker. (but Suncoast is know for their excellent safety record and is mocked by other groups for keeping speeds down, seriously)

 

I agree that autocross should be a prerequisite before DE. I spun a lot throughout the years, but spinning in an air cooled 911 (no aids) is a whole different animal.
As for practicing now, I actually went into 15 a little hot on Sunday and did an excellent impersonation of the Jeremy Clarkson drift (and yell) all the way through....

 

Exactly!

That's one of my questions also and I must admit, there are plenty of drivers out there with real fast cars that have never spun, nor had a slide before in slow speeds which is scary when you see them going really fast with no knowledge of how it feels & what to do when things get dicey.

Another worker bee here too, hate politics (in any field) and want to stay as far away as I can.
Good safety record at any DE is absolutely a great thing.

 

As a novice (2 A/Xs and 1 DE) and having spun a couple times on my first A/X, I certainly agree with this progression path. I'm glad I had those A/X experiences under my belt before heading out to the track. I also think I would have been a nervous wreck out there with the other cars with zero performance driving experience. Like Rick said, get out there and give it a go and see what our cars were really built for!