OT - $290,000 Speeding fine
01-09-2010 | 12:26 AM
#16
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From: Canada & the Alps
01-09-2010 | 03:35 AM
#17
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,925
Likes: 6
From: Westlake Village, CA
I'm gonna go with the fact that the system has been rigged for a long time to favor the rich at the expense of the middle class.
You may/may not know that the income tax rate on the wealthiest Americans is under 40% now. It used to be 70%, or even more, just a few decades ago. Also all the tax cuts, capital gains cuts, estate tax cuts and so forth favored the rich. I think the playing field needs to be equalled because it has tilted to favor the rich at the expense of the middle class for so long. Remember "Trickle Down" economics in the 1980s? The rich would get the all the love, and whatever they couldn't carry would "trickle down" to the masses LOL! Guess that economic theory is blown...
The average CEO made 57 times what the average worker made three decades ago. Now, that has ballooned to 632 times. It would be one thing if those titans of business were earning their pay, but these days Fortune 500 companies collapse because of incompetence and mis-management and those who are responsible get 8-figure golden parachutes instead of going to jail.
Do you really think people like Rick Wagoner, former head of GM, earned his hundreds of millions of dollars he made while employed at GM? He and his incompetent counterparts at AIG, Home Depot, Chrysler, Lehman Brothers, etc. decimated those companies. Those folks didn't earn their pay, and in a moral society, they'd get none of those gains. Even folks like Bill Gates amassed some of his fortune by employing unethical and illegal acts such as violating anti-trust laws. At least he's giving it back, unlike many of his peers.
In a perfect world, I agree with you completely. But in THIS imperfect world, and in this country, my feeling is that many at the top, especially those whose greed or incompetence forced hardship on thousands or even millions, have the most to give back, and lets start with those who made the most by screwing the most.
My Dad used to say: "Steal $5 here and they throw you in jail. Steal $5 billion and they build statues of you." Boy, was he right.
You may/may not know that the income tax rate on the wealthiest Americans is under 40% now. It used to be 70%, or even more, just a few decades ago. Also all the tax cuts, capital gains cuts, estate tax cuts and so forth favored the rich. I think the playing field needs to be equalled because it has tilted to favor the rich at the expense of the middle class for so long. Remember "Trickle Down" economics in the 1980s? The rich would get the all the love, and whatever they couldn't carry would "trickle down" to the masses LOL! Guess that economic theory is blown...
The average CEO made 57 times what the average worker made three decades ago. Now, that has ballooned to 632 times. It would be one thing if those titans of business were earning their pay, but these days Fortune 500 companies collapse because of incompetence and mis-management and those who are responsible get 8-figure golden parachutes instead of going to jail.
Do you really think people like Rick Wagoner, former head of GM, earned his hundreds of millions of dollars he made while employed at GM? He and his incompetent counterparts at AIG, Home Depot, Chrysler, Lehman Brothers, etc. decimated those companies. Those folks didn't earn their pay, and in a moral society, they'd get none of those gains. Even folks like Bill Gates amassed some of his fortune by employing unethical and illegal acts such as violating anti-trust laws. At least he's giving it back, unlike many of his peers.
In a perfect world, I agree with you completely. But in THIS imperfect world, and in this country, my feeling is that many at the top, especially those whose greed or incompetence forced hardship on thousands or even millions, have the most to give back, and lets start with those who made the most by screwing the most.
My Dad used to say: "Steal $5 here and they throw you in jail. Steal $5 billion and they build statues of you." Boy, was he right.
01-09-2010 | 09:59 AM
#18
Pro
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 552
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From: Greater Seattle (via NH)
How can you say a 70% tax rate is anything other than confiscatory. What gives our Government the right to "claim" that 70% of a person's income should be "shared" with everyone else?
From each according to their means, to each according to their needs. (Karl Marx). And how did that communism thing work out for them?
From each according to their means, to each according to their needs. (Karl Marx). And how did that communism thing work out for them?
01-09-2010 | 10:06 AM
#19
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From: Canada & the Alps
Funny how the rich hate being taxed high percentages, but profits in the hundreds to thousand percent are OK.
01-09-2010 | 11:02 AM
#20
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 597
Likes: 1
From: North Texas
I really did not expect so much support for a $290,000 fine for traveling 35 mph over the limit.
I thought most European countries had a strict point system attached to their drivers permits. If the guy is consistently reckless, they should pull his license based on his points.
A legitimate concern for those questioning unfair privileges afforded to the wealthy, was this driver given an unjust opportunity to buy points back by paying a high fine.
I personally have a problem with a judge indiscriminately determining the financial penalty associated with a minor traffic violation. Imagine a judge reviewing speeding ticket and spotting the word Porsche....cha ching
I thought most European countries had a strict point system attached to their drivers permits. If the guy is consistently reckless, they should pull his license based on his points.
A legitimate concern for those questioning unfair privileges afforded to the wealthy, was this driver given an unjust opportunity to buy points back by paying a high fine.
I personally have a problem with a judge indiscriminately determining the financial penalty associated with a minor traffic violation. Imagine a judge reviewing speeding ticket and spotting the word Porsche....cha ching
01-09-2010 | 11:26 AM
#21
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 824
Likes: 4
From: Mountains of NC
How can you say a 70% tax rate is anything other than confiscatory. What gives our Government the right to "claim" that 70% of a person's income should be "shared" with everyone else?
From each according to their means, to each according to their needs. (Karl Marx). And how did that communism thing work out for them?
From each according to their means, to each according to their needs. (Karl Marx). And how did that communism thing work out for them?
01-09-2010 | 11:33 AM
#22
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Joined: Sep 2009
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From: Canada & the Alps
Neither do I. I find envy a sad human trait.
But I do wonder how they got so wealthy. Its usually/sometimes on the backs of others.
I prefer to be time rich over money rich. Loads of money is of no use if you can't enjoy it. Two more years to an early retirement and more time to tour to far away places on my motorcycle.
But I do wonder how they got so wealthy. Its usually/sometimes on the backs of others.
I prefer to be time rich over money rich. Loads of money is of no use if you can't enjoy it. Two more years to an early retirement and more time to tour to far away places on my motorcycle.
01-09-2010 | 02:34 PM
#23
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Joined: Jul 2007
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How can you say a 70% tax rate is anything other than confiscatory. What gives our Government the right to "claim" that 70% of a person's income should be "shared" with everyone else?
From each according to their means, to each according to their needs. (Karl Marx). And how did that communism thing work out for them?
From each according to their means, to each according to their needs. (Karl Marx). And how did that communism thing work out for them?
Believe me, I don't like being taxed anymore than anyone else, but the sad fact is the U.S. has a $12 trillion dollar debt now and is running a yearly budget where they're spending $1.5 trillion per year more than it takes in. The government should be 'entitled' to tax at whatever rate is deemed necessary to get our financial house in order, and the rich should be taxed the most.
If a 70% tax rate is confiscatory, how about a 28% credit card rate? How many CEO billionaires did U.S. banking companies create over usurious credit card rates? The above poster's analogy about the $2.50 shoe is a good example as well.
I know socialism is a bad word here in the U.S., but no one here seems to mind Social Security or Medicare, which are pure socialist programs. Meanwhile, "socialist" countries like Switzerland, Norway, France, Canada and such have some of the best healthcare, lowest mortality rates and highest quality of life in the world.
A true measure of a society's greatness is determined on how well they treat their poor. There's no uglier sight than a millionaire hoarding pennies while the man next to him starves.
01-09-2010 | 02:58 PM
#24
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,543
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From: Canada & the Alps
At the rate the U.S. is going, you may be asking "how did that unfettered capitalism work for them?" pretty soon. With the U.S. teeming with trillions and trillions of dollars of debt, and now budget deficits also in the trillions, this flawed system could surely go down just like Soviet communism did. We all got a taste of how screwed up our system, and our society, has become in 2008 during the financial crises.
Believe me, I don't like being taxed anymore than anyone else, but the sad fact is the U.S. has a $12 trillion dollar debt now and is running a yearly budget where they're spending $1.5 trillion per year more than it takes in. The government should be 'entitled' to tax at whatever rate is deemed necessary to get our financial house in order, and the rich should be taxed the most.
If a 70% tax rate is confiscatory, how about a 28% credit card rate? How many CEO billionaires did U.S. banking companies create over usurious credit card rates? The above poster's analogy about the $2.50 shoe is a good example as well.
I know socialism is a bad word here in the U.S., but no one here seems to mind Social Security or Medicare, which are pure socialist programs. Meanwhile, "socialist" countries like Switzerland, Norway, France, Canada and such have some of the best healthcare, lowest mortality rates and highest quality of life in the world.
A true measure of a society's greatness is determined on how well they treat their poor. There's no uglier sight than a millionaire hoarding pennies while the man next to him starves.
Believe me, I don't like being taxed anymore than anyone else, but the sad fact is the U.S. has a $12 trillion dollar debt now and is running a yearly budget where they're spending $1.5 trillion per year more than it takes in. The government should be 'entitled' to tax at whatever rate is deemed necessary to get our financial house in order, and the rich should be taxed the most.
If a 70% tax rate is confiscatory, how about a 28% credit card rate? How many CEO billionaires did U.S. banking companies create over usurious credit card rates? The above poster's analogy about the $2.50 shoe is a good example as well.
I know socialism is a bad word here in the U.S., but no one here seems to mind Social Security or Medicare, which are pure socialist programs. Meanwhile, "socialist" countries like Switzerland, Norway, France, Canada and such have some of the best healthcare, lowest mortality rates and highest quality of life in the world.
A true measure of a society's greatness is determined on how well they treat their poor. There's no uglier sight than a millionaire hoarding pennies while the man next to him starves.
I found it interesting when I was listening to what Americans had to say about universal health care. I was amazed quite a percentage was against it (I wonder if those were the ones with vested interests, the ones who stand to lose $$$). If I was an American tax payer, I'd be fuming at the billions of dollars spent every month in Iraq while I was left with tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands in medical bills.
BTW, our health care up here is very good; I wouldn't call it great. I spent 13 days as a foreigner in a hospital in Austria last June. The service was great! The cost, a mere 483 Euros (about US$725) per day, all inclusive and that means the operation as well. How the hell can hospital costs run in the thousands to tens of thousands per day in the US when it is rated 37th best in the world.
And getting back to socialism, people down there don't seem to mind free fire and police departments, airport runways, etc. Some of your tax dollars are going to runways even if you've never flown. Where do you draw the line?
01-09-2010 | 04:28 PM
#25
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,382
Likes: 59
From: nowhere, but at least I'm getting there fast!
I spent 13 days as a foreigner in a hospital in Austria last June. The service was great! The cost, a mere 483 Euros (about US$725) per day, all inclusive and that means the operation as well. How the hell can hospital costs run in the thousands to tens of thousands per day in the US when it is rated 37th best in the world.
01-09-2010 | 05:22 PM
#26
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 163
Likes: 2
From: Greensboro, NC & Highlands, NC (on the real roads)
At the rate the U.S. is going, you may be asking "how did that unfettered capitalism work for them?" pretty soon. With the U.S. teeming with trillions and trillions of dollars of debt, and now budget deficits also in the trillions, this flawed system could surely go down just like Soviet communism did. We all got a taste of how screwed up our system, and our society, has become in 2008 during the financial crises.
Believe me, I don't like being taxed anymore than anyone else, but the sad fact is the U.S. has a $12 trillion dollar debt now and is running a yearly budget where they're spending $1.5 trillion per year more than it takes in. The government should be 'entitled' to tax at whatever rate is deemed necessary to get our financial house in order, and the rich should be taxed the most.
If a 70% tax rate is confiscatory, how about a 28% credit card rate? How many CEO billionaires did U.S. banking companies create over usurious credit card rates? The above poster's analogy about the $2.50 shoe is a good example as well.
I know socialism is a bad word here in the U.S., but no one here seems to mind Social Security or Medicare, which are pure socialist programs. Meanwhile, "socialist" countries like Switzerland, Norway, France, Canada and such have some of the best healthcare, lowest mortality rates and highest quality of life in the world.
A true measure of a society's greatness is determined on how well they treat their poor. There's no uglier sight than a millionaire hoarding pennies while the man next to him starves.
Believe me, I don't like being taxed anymore than anyone else, but the sad fact is the U.S. has a $12 trillion dollar debt now and is running a yearly budget where they're spending $1.5 trillion per year more than it takes in. The government should be 'entitled' to tax at whatever rate is deemed necessary to get our financial house in order, and the rich should be taxed the most.
If a 70% tax rate is confiscatory, how about a 28% credit card rate? How many CEO billionaires did U.S. banking companies create over usurious credit card rates? The above poster's analogy about the $2.50 shoe is a good example as well.
I know socialism is a bad word here in the U.S., but no one here seems to mind Social Security or Medicare, which are pure socialist programs. Meanwhile, "socialist" countries like Switzerland, Norway, France, Canada and such have some of the best healthcare, lowest mortality rates and highest quality of life in the world.
A true measure of a society's greatness is determined on how well they treat their poor. There's no uglier sight than a millionaire hoarding pennies while the man next to him starves.
Percent Ranked by AGI AGI Threshold on Percentiles Percent of Income Tax Paid
Top 1% $410,096 40.42
Top 5% $160,041 60.63
Top 10% $113,018 71.22
Top 25% $66,532 86.59
Top 50% $32,879 7.11
Bottom 50% <$32,879 2.89
Note: AGI is Adjusted Gross Income
Source: Internal Revenue Service
When the top 5% of the people pay 61% of the income taxes, and the bottom 50% pay only 3% then the system is definately schewed, but not in favor of the "rich". I am a taxx accountant and I have many clients paying more than the average person earns. The idea that the "rich" are getting off free, is simply a notion that sells papers, not based on reality. Note the above source.
01-09-2010 | 05:29 PM
#27
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,942
Likes: 152
There has always been the argument that the rich don't pay their fair share. Facts do not support this.
Percent Ranked by AGI AGI Threshold on Percentiles Percent of Income Tax Paid
Top 1% $410,096 40.42
Top 5% $160,041
60.63
Top 10%
$113,018
71.22
Top 25%
$66,532
86.59
Top 50%
$32,879
97.11
Bottom 50%
<$32,879
2.89
Note: AGI is Adjusted Gross Income
Source: Internal Revenue Service
Percent Ranked by AGI AGI Threshold on Percentiles Percent of Income Tax Paid
Top 1% $410,096 40.42
Top 5% $160,041
60.63
Top 10%
$113,018
71.22
Top 25%
$66,532
86.59
Top 50%
$32,879
97.11
Bottom 50%
<$32,879
2.89
Note: AGI is Adjusted Gross Income
Source: Internal Revenue Service
Obviously, if a country like the U.S. is bankrupt or teeming with debt, the money to fix things needs to come from somewhere. The poor and middle class have already been soaked or missed out on the fabulous debt-fueled speculation of the 1980s-2000s that helped turn mere millionaires into billionaires. That leaves the super-rich. They received the lion's share of that largesse, they should get the lion's share of the debt.
No one said the rich don't pay, but given our precarious financial picture, they are obviously not paying enough. It doesn't take an accountant to see we need more revenue to fix our broken system, and the rich are the ones who have benefitted from most of the tax cuts over the years. As an accountant you probably know this.
01-09-2010 | 06:38 PM
#28
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 820
Likes: 1
From: Europe
It is Switzerland, four cantons and four languages! and remember as one of the greatest American creatives of the 20C once said on celluloid of that country -
" In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
" In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
