Just got deeply scr*wed....
06-13-2008, 06:17 PM
#226
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Theres a lot of discussion around a person's morals and values with this thread. There are 6+ billion people on the earth and probably hundreds if not thousands of Rennlist readers, all with vastly different values. Not everyone on Rennlist has the same values.
Some sellers would be 'good to go' selling for a certain high price thinking and knowing that it is the buyer's responsibility for due diligence. Some sellers would not.
Some sellers would be 'good to go' selling for a certain high price thinking and knowing that it is the buyer's responsibility for due diligence. Some sellers would not.
06-13-2008, 06:19 PM
#227
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Wrong. I have paid too much for used cars more than once.
I have bought a new $150,000 car and sold it six months later at a $15K loss.
But not once have I blamed anyone but me for my mistakes.
Any adult who choses to buys a car without seeing it, chooses to pick it up six months later and then decides he doesn't like it gets zero sympathy from me.
I have bought a new $150,000 car and sold it six months later at a $15K loss.
But not once have I blamed anyone but me for my mistakes.
Any adult who choses to buys a car without seeing it, chooses to pick it up six months later and then decides he doesn't like it gets zero sympathy from me.
06-13-2008, 06:23 PM
#228
Rennlist Member
I honestly do not know what you guys are talking about.
The buyer owned the car for six months before deciding he didn't like it and is now trying (and apparently succeeding) to start a sh!tstorm, based on........ what?
How long is a seller supposed to wait before he can safely assume the buyer is happy?
The buyer owned the car for six months before deciding he didn't like it and is now trying (and apparently succeeding) to start a sh!tstorm, based on........ what?
How long is a seller supposed to wait before he can safely assume the buyer is happy?
06-13-2008, 06:29 PM
#229
Rennlist Member
Starting a web with "just got scr*wed " it does not sound like you are asuming responsibility for your actions. The seller has moved on and spent the money, what would you have him do now? If the regret had taken place right after the money had changed hands, the seller would have had more options.
As someone stated, the title of the thread is not neutral, nor should it be. It's how I feel, I've got a good handle on these cars, and I think it's legitimate. I've been transparent about what I clearly screwed up on, what my expectations were, and what the true condition of the car is.
six gun, good points except that the nature of the transaction was such that the seller parted with the car months ago and the buyer picked it up last week. Unfortunately, this is not a straightforward transaction. I've owned more cars than the number of years I've been walking around in this earth and more than half a dozen were purchased used and sight unseen out of the US. I've never experienced anything remotely close to this situation.
06-13-2008, 06:57 PM
#231
Rennlist Member
I don't know either of these guys. Maybe one is smart and one is dumb. Maybe one is honest and one is not. But if you sort through the innuendo and mudslinging thoughout this thread with the highly inflamatory title started by the buyer, I don't see any FACTS that show the seller to be a bad guy.
The buyer was interested in the car, a DE car.
The buyer had a PPI done.
The buyer chose not to inspect the car personally.
The buyer chose to buy the car.
The buyer chose to let his car sit somewhere for six months without seeing it.
Now you guys say the seller is responsible for the condition of a car he hasn't even owned for six months? How is that fair?
The buyer was interested in the car, a DE car.
The buyer had a PPI done.
The buyer chose not to inspect the car personally.
The buyer chose to buy the car.
The buyer chose to let his car sit somewhere for six months without seeing it.
Now you guys say the seller is responsible for the condition of a car he hasn't even owned for six months? How is that fair?
06-13-2008, 07:21 PM
#232
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06-13-2008, 07:23 PM
#233
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Just a couple of observations:
1. While we all hope that Rennlisters are honorable, joining Rennlist is not the moral equivalent of taking holy orders. Trust, but verify.
2. Matt's title for this thread would more appropriately be, "Boy, did I screw up". Buying a big-ticket item for top dollar without an objective set of eyes on scene is unwise. So is having the PPI done by a shop that has a relationship with the seller.
3. Waiting such a long time to personally inspect said item severely limits one's options for recourse.
4. I sensed that Matt was working Rennlist to pressure the seller into making some adjustments on the deal, warranted or not. He was less than forthcoming about the details of the transaction until some sympathy had been generated for his cause.
1. While we all hope that Rennlisters are honorable, joining Rennlist is not the moral equivalent of taking holy orders. Trust, but verify.
2. Matt's title for this thread would more appropriately be, "Boy, did I screw up". Buying a big-ticket item for top dollar without an objective set of eyes on scene is unwise. So is having the PPI done by a shop that has a relationship with the seller.
3. Waiting such a long time to personally inspect said item severely limits one's options for recourse.
4. I sensed that Matt was working Rennlist to pressure the seller into making some adjustments on the deal, warranted or not. He was less than forthcoming about the details of the transaction until some sympathy had been generated for his cause.
06-13-2008, 07:50 PM
#234
Rennlist Member
Just a couple of observations:
1. While we all hope that Rennlisters are honorable, joining Rennlist is not the moral equivalent of taking holy orders. Trust, but verify.
2. Matt's title for this thread would more appropriately be, "Boy, did I screw up". Buying a big-ticket item for top dollar without an objective set of eyes on scene is unwise. So is having the PPI done by a shop that has a relationship with the seller.
3. Waiting such a long time to personally inspect said item severely limits one's options for recourse.
4. I sensed that Matt was working Rennlist to pressure the seller into making some adjustments on the deal, warranted or not. He was less than forthcoming about the details of the transaction until some sympathy had been generated for his cause.
1. While we all hope that Rennlisters are honorable, joining Rennlist is not the moral equivalent of taking holy orders. Trust, but verify.
2. Matt's title for this thread would more appropriately be, "Boy, did I screw up". Buying a big-ticket item for top dollar without an objective set of eyes on scene is unwise. So is having the PPI done by a shop that has a relationship with the seller.
3. Waiting such a long time to personally inspect said item severely limits one's options for recourse.
4. I sensed that Matt was working Rennlist to pressure the seller into making some adjustments on the deal, warranted or not. He was less than forthcoming about the details of the transaction until some sympathy had been generated for his cause.
Well Said !!
I do not think any one here has anything but empthy for Mat, all I am saying is there is enough blame to go around. Some of us have the benifit of the experience of " buying more cars than they have spent years on the planet" others try to learn from others mistakes
06-13-2008, 07:51 PM
#235
Race Car
I can see both sides of this. At the end of the day, it's as poor an example of "good business" as I can remember reading recently. That applies to both sides...
What would be the opinion if the seller were a dealership (say, in Houston) with a less than stellar reputation? Would we feel differently about the transaction? Why would one assume that someone you met on the internet was any more honorable than an advertised business?
I've been the recipient of some really unbelievable generosity from members of this board. I hope to repay it. However, I won't put at risk more than I can afford to lose.
Matt is right. $44K is a lot of money.
What would be the opinion if the seller were a dealership (say, in Houston) with a less than stellar reputation? Would we feel differently about the transaction? Why would one assume that someone you met on the internet was any more honorable than an advertised business?
I've been the recipient of some really unbelievable generosity from members of this board. I hope to repay it. However, I won't put at risk more than I can afford to lose.
Matt is right. $44K is a lot of money.
06-13-2008, 07:54 PM
#236
It seems that more people are inclined to assume the PPI was dishonest, rather than believe Ron let the car sit outside sometime during the past 5 or 6 months. And I believe this inclination was started with they way this thread was started. "Just got deeply scr*wed" instantly brings out sympathy for a fellow Rennlister.
06-13-2008, 07:56 PM
#237
The learnings for SELLERS:
Do NOT settle for transferring the title only.
ALWAYS insist that the buyer sign a detailed Bill of Sale and Release.
This can help protect you from buyers with remorse or selective memory.
Here's the ones I have used:
BILL OF SALE
Year, make and model: 1990 Mazda MX-5 Miata
VIN: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Odometer reading: ___________________
Date of sale: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Seller hereby acknowledges receipt of $xxxxxxxxxxxxxx for full and final payment for the above vehicle, which is sold “AS IS,” with no warranty of any kind.
The sale is final and non-refundable, and no part of the payment is refundable to the buyer for any reason.
I, the seller, certify that I am the current owner of the vehicle, and have the authority to sell it. I hereby transfer full ownership of this to the buyer. I certify that the ownership of this vehicle at the time of sale is subject to no outstanding liens or encumbrances.
Buyer hereby acknowledges receipt of the following: notarized title with mileage disclosure statement transferring seller’s full ownership of the vehicle to the buyer, extra parts, this signed Bill of Sale, all keys to the vehicle, and delivery of the vehicle itself.
(seller’s signature) (buyer’s signature)
(date) (date)
Disclosure, Disclaimer, and Release
The 1990 Mazda MX-5 Miata VIN xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx sold to xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx is subject to the following:
1. Disclosure:
(I always list all mods from stock here.)
This vehicle has been modified from its original configuration, including, but not limited to, modifications to the engine, suspension and brake systems.
The headlights on the vehicle are aftermarket units that may not meet DOT standards, and may not be appropriate for night use.
The tires on the vehicle are high-performance summer-only tires, are not rated “all-season” or “winter” tires, and are not appropriate for cold weather use.
2. Disclaimer:
TO THE FULL EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, THIS USED VEHICLE IS SOLD “AS IS” AND WITHOUT ANY WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR USE.
Buyer is knowledgeable about this type of vehicle, its modifications, and its equipment, has had the opportunity to personally inspected the vehicle in detail or have it inspected by a third party, and has made his purchase decision based solely on his own expert opinion.
3. Release and promise not to sue:
Buyer hereby releases seller, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, and his family and estate, from any and all causes of action or claims as regards the vehicle, and promises not to sue any of the foregoing as regards to the vehicle, or its operation or use. This paragraph shall be read in the broadest way possible and if any part hereof is found in valid under applicable law, the remainder shall remain in full force and effect.
I have read the foregoing and agree to the above.
(buyer) (date)
Do NOT settle for transferring the title only.
ALWAYS insist that the buyer sign a detailed Bill of Sale and Release.
This can help protect you from buyers with remorse or selective memory.
Here's the ones I have used:
BILL OF SALE
Year, make and model: 1990 Mazda MX-5 Miata
VIN: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Odometer reading: ___________________
Date of sale: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Seller hereby acknowledges receipt of $xxxxxxxxxxxxxx for full and final payment for the above vehicle, which is sold “AS IS,” with no warranty of any kind.
The sale is final and non-refundable, and no part of the payment is refundable to the buyer for any reason.
I, the seller, certify that I am the current owner of the vehicle, and have the authority to sell it. I hereby transfer full ownership of this to the buyer. I certify that the ownership of this vehicle at the time of sale is subject to no outstanding liens or encumbrances.
Buyer hereby acknowledges receipt of the following: notarized title with mileage disclosure statement transferring seller’s full ownership of the vehicle to the buyer, extra parts, this signed Bill of Sale, all keys to the vehicle, and delivery of the vehicle itself.
(seller’s signature) (buyer’s signature)
(date) (date)
Disclosure, Disclaimer, and Release
The 1990 Mazda MX-5 Miata VIN xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx sold to xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx is subject to the following:
1. Disclosure:
(I always list all mods from stock here.)
This vehicle has been modified from its original configuration, including, but not limited to, modifications to the engine, suspension and brake systems.
The headlights on the vehicle are aftermarket units that may not meet DOT standards, and may not be appropriate for night use.
The tires on the vehicle are high-performance summer-only tires, are not rated “all-season” or “winter” tires, and are not appropriate for cold weather use.
2. Disclaimer:
TO THE FULL EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, THIS USED VEHICLE IS SOLD “AS IS” AND WITHOUT ANY WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR USE.
Buyer is knowledgeable about this type of vehicle, its modifications, and its equipment, has had the opportunity to personally inspected the vehicle in detail or have it inspected by a third party, and has made his purchase decision based solely on his own expert opinion.
3. Release and promise not to sue:
Buyer hereby releases seller, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, and his family and estate, from any and all causes of action or claims as regards the vehicle, and promises not to sue any of the foregoing as regards to the vehicle, or its operation or use. This paragraph shall be read in the broadest way possible and if any part hereof is found in valid under applicable law, the remainder shall remain in full force and effect.
I have read the foregoing and agree to the above.
(buyer) (date)
Thanks also for the link to the book in your signature.
I just bought a copy based on the logic you're bringing to this thread.
Another Matt
06-13-2008, 08:01 PM
#238
Rennlist Member
I think that's a significant question.
It seems that more people are inclined to assume the PPI was dishonest, rather than believe Ron let the car sit outside sometime during the past 5 or 6 months. And I believe this inclination was started with they way this thread was started. "Just got deeply scr*wed" instantly brings out sympathy for a fellow Rennlister.
It seems that more people are inclined to assume the PPI was dishonest, rather than believe Ron let the car sit outside sometime during the past 5 or 6 months. And I believe this inclination was started with they way this thread was started. "Just got deeply scr*wed" instantly brings out sympathy for a fellow Rennlister.
06-13-2008, 08:15 PM
#239
I think that's a significant question.
It seems that more people are inclined to assume the PPI was dishonest, rather than believe Ron let the car sit outside sometime during the past 5 or 6 months. And I believe this inclination was started with they way this thread was started. "Just got deeply scr*wed" instantly brings out sympathy for a fellow Rennlister.
It seems that more people are inclined to assume the PPI was dishonest, rather than believe Ron let the car sit outside sometime during the past 5 or 6 months. And I believe this inclination was started with they way this thread was started. "Just got deeply scr*wed" instantly brings out sympathy for a fellow Rennlister.
Really, the significant question is not whether the car changed materially over those six months, but who is responsible for the car over those six months. That's easy to answer. If Matt owned it over those 6 months and either he or his mechanic allowed it to sit improperly, causing whatever damage may or may not have been caused over that time, he/the mechanic is responsible.
Matt can, of course, go after the mechanic for storing the car improperly (if that's what caused all the damage and Matt can prove it), but it's not any of the seller's business. One the money and title changed hands, legally, the seller was off the hook for whatever happens AFTER that point, like the six month storage.
Another interesting question is whether the damage he claims happened before it sat for those six months, or whether the damage was caused by improper storage. But again, since Matt now owns it, he, or perhaps his mechanic, is responsible no matter who caused it. But the seller is off the hook for those six months no matter what, if in fact, Matt did own it during that time.
So, if the condition of the car changed over those six months and Matt owned the car, it's his problem to solve.