Van1

I have followed many threads on this board regarding suspension set ups to include the recent recipes that everybody was giving to Juha. But I want to pose the suspension question from a different angle. Let's just say that money is an object for me. I have already exchanged dialog with Steve W and came to the conclusion that as juicy as Motons sound, his recipe was a little more than I want to spend, especially for DE purposes. So, here is the angle that I want to look at. How would Bilsteins HDs and M030 work at the track? My car currently has just over 50k mi on the stock US M030 suspension and at my last track event I corded the outside edges of almost new MPS2s. I am fairly aggressive, but I work on smoothness. I know that I need to do something with my suspension geometry to progress and to keep from eating up tires. Aside from Motons, my inclination was to go with Cross/RS bars and call it good. But I decided to look at the PCA/POC club racing class rules and it seems that coilovers might put me into a prepared class vs stock/improved. And to be competative in the prepared class, I would have to spend a bunch of money. Not that I plan on going the club racing route, I am curious if I should mirror the rules just in case. Staying M030 would clearly keep me in there. But would I have fun doing DE's in the meantime on RoW M030? I already have a second set of wheels that I will shod with MPSCs and plan on using Hawk HT-10s or some other recommended track pad for the binders.

I know that Martin is a big proponent of M030, but anybody else have anything for it? Basically, I am looking for an organized path to follow and all I can use at this point is the PCA/POC class rules. I don't want my upgrade path to be a free for all. I am looking for a vision.

Mike

early_grayce

+1

Same situation....

Terry Adams

I don't DE, but I have been very happy with my RoW M030/HD for aggressive canyon carving. A lot of bang for not much buck. Especially with the thicker RoW sways and lowering. I like the HD, but I don't know if that puts you in a new class. Look at the install+alignment+corner balance cost, and ask yourself if you want to do it twice. Second time being when your stock shocks wear out.

Mark in Baltimore

Mike,

The HD/M030 combo is a good set up for the street and some track. I guess it all depends on how often you do DE's or time trialing. The outer edges of your tires are burning out because you probably don't have enough negative camber.

Ritter v4.0

I was happy with HD Bils for street but went to JIC's (different car) when I started to spend time on the track.The advice I was given was the Bils will quickly show their limits. I have not looked back.

In short, if you don't already have them, and you tend to more serious and aggressive it might be more cost effective long term to upgrade now rather than later. This is the single most important mod you'll likely make. It was form me- that and my CF shiftknob. My $0.02.

Harvey Yancey

If you end up doing a fair amount of DE's you will eventually start to outdrive the capabilities of the PSS-9's. Personally I am in the process of switching to JIC/Cross as a result of that process.

TheOtherEric

Why not just install PSS9's?? Since they don't come with camber plates, you're still in the stock unprepared class (at least PCA, I dunno about POC).

I view it like this-- here's the suspension and the (rough!) number of track days that you'll be satisfied with it:

Setup -- # Days
------ -- --------
Stock up to 10
M030 up to 20
PSS9/JIC up to 60
Motons 60+

So if you plan to do 3 days a year, sure M030 is fine for several years (because you'll never be good enough to want/need better). But 10 per year and it makes no sense.

George from MD

I think that's a fine combination for DEs. When or if you really start getting into modifying your car you'll have PLENTY of choices and there will be even more opinions about which suspension setups are better (and both Moton and JRZ are up there in terms of quality and price).

If you're relatively new (and it sounds like you might be) concentrate on your driving and work on the simple stuff before shelling out thousands for expensive setups. If you're wearing the outside quickly you likely need more negative camber- but all your alignment settings should be checked. Are your tire pressures too low? That could be causing premature outside wear too. You might also want to check your driving- are you sliding the car? If so you're losing speed as well as wearing the tires...what I would do is have someone much more experienced drive with you who has no interest in selling you something, check all the basics and go from there.

Find a mechanic you can trust- when I went back to mine after having a pro drive my car and tell me how great a JRZ set up would be he asked- so he drove your car quicker than you without the JRZs? I said yes. He asked what should have been obvious- why don't you learn to drive the car as well as he does- and then look at the JRZs?

It took me a few years to get my car where I like it- (H&R monoballs & springs/RS sways/lots of negative/playing with rollbar settings/TP etc.)- and I still want to tweak and upgrade. It's easy to spend big $ on this sport but finding the time and opportunity to hone your skills is (at least for me) a lot harder.

Jeff96-993

If you're doing a DE on street tires, then ROW M030 is fantastic. The tires are the limiting part of the equation.

If you're thinking about running track tires, you'll find that the suspension is now limiting. You'll need something better than M030.

I did a track event with my stock suspension, then another one after my ROW M030 mod. I was ecstatic over the improvement.

My next event I added track tires... they lasted only one day. The tires were so great I could over drive them, the suspension was not which meant I could burn out the rear tires in short order.

The rest of the weekend I was on street tires, and was back to tires being the limiting component. I couldn't get anywhere close to the limits of the previous day, and the street rears made it through the event quite nicely.

Van1

Thanks for the feedback everybody, it all helps. I have been doing 3-4 DEs per year for the last 6 years in my previous E36 M3 and now the 993 for the past 3 so I am not sure I am a newbie. My local PCA and BMW chapters consider me advanced. I was trying to see if anybody out there was having fun as an advanced type DE participant running on RoW M030 and not feeling like they were limited in anyway or feeling like they just couldn't keep up with the rest of their group. Right now I feel that way on my 50k mi stock US M030 and MPS2s. Everybody else in the advanced groups have some kind of suspension and track rubber and I can't quite keep up although I give them all a run for the money.

I get the feeling that I will go for the Cross/RS bar set up and take it from there. I only want to have to pay for one alignment and corner balance.

TheOtherEric

OIC. Going to ROW M030 wouldn't make any sense for you then. IIRC, the spring rates are pretty similar to (or the same as) the US M030.

Adrienne

Just adding a few more cents here: I have the MO30 and do about 3 events a year. It suits me well, although I do find it a bit soft now that I'm progressing. It takes a bit for the suspension to settle in quick 1-2 corners, as the car's weight shifts from one side to the other. But that being said, the MO30 is a predictable and compliant set-up, which is acceptable considering my hobby level use of a daily driver. And it can keep up with pss9-equipped 993s. MO30 is not the limiting factor in my driving ( I'd be that limit).