BEATSPX

How much less would you pay for a Polar Silver 1995 Porsche 911 C4 coupe with 61k miles, and interior/exterior in very good condition if the odometer did not reflect actual mileage?

I believe mileage is accurate within 150 miles as the mechanic probably only had access to the car for 1.5 wks and used it as a daily-driver - but anyone buying it probably wouldn't believe it. In fact, for all I know, it was tracked, went on a road trip, etc.

Other Details:
Over $12k in maintenance recently completed (all records kept), LWF, RS Clutch, short-shift kit with upgraded ECU (Rennsport), Euro-bumper, 18" turbo twist wheels, large chrome-tip exhaust, and adjustable shocks.

While on an 3wk trip to CA, I decided to get some work done on my car. To make a long short short, the mechanic admitted to disconnecting my odometer "for testing purposes." Regardless of the total the absurdity of or the reason for doing so, the bottom line is it happened.

I've done some research on the topic and read everything from $4,000 flat deduction in value (which doesn't make sense - tampering with odometer of a Yugo has same economic impact as on a Porsche?!) to half the purchase price of the car (since a large segment of the market won't even consider buying it). This is from a couple court cases I've read and a study conducted by some agency in PA.

Your opinion, either in terms of $'s less or % discount (or references I could use for more authoritative estimates) would be very much appreciated!

Many thanks in advance,
John

dcdude

Is this discrepency documented in Carfax or something?

Any idea how many miles the mechanic's joy ride was? Tell him that at this point, all you want is the truth, the number doesn't matter ...for now. I sound like Tony Soprano with a gun in someone's mouth....

Randy 1

I think you can probably circumvent this with some creative deal making. Off the top of my head:
- Offer to pay for a PPI of their choosing, no questions asked
- Offer to purchase a 1 year 3rd party warranty (if you're facing a big deduct for odo shenanigans, this may seem cheap in comparison)
- Get some sort of signed affidavit from the wrench (who sounds like a bonehead) stipulating the reasons for the "testing" (most likely to be complete BS) and a "not-to-exceed" amount of driving that was done with the odometer off.

I think kudos go to you for what appears to be a willingness to be up front about the issue.

Guy

Your honesty is commendable, mention it for what it is. I don't think it matters much at the end of the day. Its not odometer tappering so much as it is "mileage not actual". I wouldn't overthink the situation IMHO.

MarkD

Based on your description of what happened, this seems minor and I would not discount anything. Though at the most I like Randy's idea of paying for the PPI.
Odometer tampering usually means much more than what you described. Rolling back miles... a lot of miles, is what I think you are seeing in your research. Not a short time(?) with a lame mechanic.

I am more curious as to what "test" he was doing that required the odometer to be disconnected. Very odd.
Was it the "lets see how fast I can get from here to Vegas and back test"?

Did he have the car a day or a week? Did you need new tires when you got the car back?
Anyhow, seems minor in the scheme of things.

pcar964

I'm guessing you're asking this question because you're trying to determine a monetary value for the loss you anticipate taking when you sell the car, due to his dishonest action of tampering with the odometer. I'll go a step further and guess you're planning legal action to reclaim that value from said mechanic. And I'll take the final step and guess you're using this thread to help support the diminished value claim.

That's a tough call - if you're honest with the buyer, chances are you'll lose some potential buyers (no question about that). Hopefully the issue can be resolved without resorting to litigation, which is the all-too common solution these days... maybe the mechanic can throw in a 30k mile service for free or something, and call it even? just thinking out loud.

MarkD

ah, I see...
good observation.

I am going back to my naive, dream world now. G'day

TheOtherEric

So the mechanic unplugged the odo for a week and put a few miles on it. So what? Plug it back in; end of story.

Am I missing something??

jimq

+1. If it isnt carfax what difference does a few miles make. Your tires and spedo error probably accounts for a larger number up or down after all those miles. For all you know maybe now it has the actual "corrected" miles showing.

2Many Cars

I can see both sides. On one hand you want to be honest. On the other how different is this from if your speedo cable broke and you couldn't get it fixed for a couple of days. I think the issue here is your intent. If you are sure that the mechanic didn't drive for more than a couple of hundred miles (was he at work those days? Did he have time to really drive it?) then I'd just reconnect it and move on. Absent damage to the car, the few miles are incidental and IMHO you are not attempting to defraud anyone if you don't disclose it. Put a couple of thousand miles on it with the speedo disconnected and then it's a different story. I'd be pretty steamed at the mechanic though.

MarkD

Did y'all read pcar964's post?
I think he is on to something there.

Bearclaw

+1

It was a goofball move on the mechanic's part (was he chasing down something electrical? what was the excuse given?). But I don't think it's even worth mentioning at selling time. Sleep easy.

You get today's "Ethics Consciousness" award - and that's good thing!

BS911

I'll go against the "leave it alone" sentiment for a minute here. And not because I'm a sue you screw you kind of guy, but more of a not letting some turd get away with something as sleazy as the mechanic did here.

I did a lot of reading on this when doing the odometer repair DIY. Mostly because a lot of people think there is some magical certification someone has to have to "legally" repair an odometer. That is completely untrue and any changes to an odometer, or operation of a car with a non-functioning odometer, has very specific legal ramifications. Whether you do it in your basement with a rusty screwdriver while drinking a beer, or if it is done at the North Hollywood Speedometer shop. It isn't HOW it is done. But IF it is done and the surrounding situations. In short, the only way to repair, replace, whatever, to an odometer without your car being "True Mileage Unknown" is to repair close enough to the actual breakage that you know the EXACT miles on the car, and to reinstall an odometer with the same miles as when it came out. Read this....

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/h...5----000-.html

and this...

https://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/211866-993-964-968-odometer-repair-diy.html

(I linked that one because of the other legal docs referenced.)

especially this part.
Here is the problem. As soon as your car no longer has the correct mileage on the odometer, it is "True Mileage Unknown." And as soon as you KNOW that, you are legally obliged. That means you must inform a prospective buyer of its status. If you don't, then you don't disclose with intent to conceal. Just like an accident repair job, this certainly COULD decrease the resale value of a car. Granted, some people may take your word that it was very limited mileage just like some people may trust that an accident repair job was done properly. But of course, after an accident repair a lot of people may go after an at fault driver with a dimished value claim. Again, I'm not one to endorse frivolous lawsuits, but I think your car now certainly has "dimished value." Just your honesty in selling the car as TMU would probably minimize the decrease, but then again, maybe it won't. That shouldn't be your problem. That should be the shop moron's problem.


Is Jackie Chiles on the board?

Now back to pcar's sentiment. I like the free 30k service idea. BUT! Get the guy to pay a different shop for the 30k service... just to make sure the car is up to spec with a legitimate shop following him getting his jollies in your car. And now that I mention that... a full detail inside and out. We don't know how many jollies he got in your car.

2ndof2

Um, all the things I said in my now deleted post but the other way around (didn't read your question carefully enough the first time) A buyer will have to decide the true value of a hard to find excellent condition 993. I don't know how one knows if a speedo was disconnected but if its not evident and only a few hundred miles at most w/out being connected I'd say its a non-issue. As a buyer I'd have to consider the condition of the car as the most important factor. Low miles is a bonus but once you get into the 50-80K mile range I think values are primarily driven by the visual condition, the maint. history and how well the car runs.

Randy 1

BS911: complete misnomer, not BS at all!

Very informative post, thanks for the links.